I know that being left by a girlfriend/boyfriend is a disturbingly and surprisingly common motive

though I don't believe it is one of the top reasons

Some of these categories generate less suicidal desire than others, and are less easy to address by society.

..

It is hard to get good data on this from dead people though, so you have to use survivors as a proxy, which causes issues

Suicides don't happen based on a sole failure in life. There has to be enough piling up of problems behind the final motive. It's circumstances which dictate the move rather than a sole incident.

I'm not so sure, most suicides don't appear to be planned at all. So while I do agree that it is likely for there to be piling up problems in a sense, for most suicides you're looking for a more acute explanation than chronic.

I think more suicides are planned than not

@asparkofpyrokravte you don't really need to gather data from the successful suicide attempts, no reason you can't ask the survivors

http://www.sprc.org/news/planned-impulsive-suicide-attempts

Yeah, its like 13% planned

@InsaneCaterpilla Eh. Survivors aren't a random sample. I feel pretty confident in postulating that people who have a greater desire for suicide tend to use more final methods.

Sure, you can ask survivors and that will give you good data. But you can woozle yourself too that way.

It's that instant trigger which makes those pile of problems seem never ending. That trigger could be anything per se. I myself pondered about how liberating an early death would be after reading Nietzsche. It was nothing suicidal, but the amount of adversaries in life seemed never ending. Mind needs constant motivation.

In general they probably do, but people have even been known (in rare cases) to survive shooting themselves in the head

Yeah, I was thinking of that

There some people who clearly didn't have a last moment "oshit" moment and survived for sheer providence or coincidence

"It's that instant trigger which makes those pile of problems seem never ending...Mind needs constant motivation" <- so much yes.

The solution to the problem imo is rigorous promotion of mental health among young men and also generally among all. The industry should hire more mental health professionals and check the mental well being of their employees. Every problem could be tackled in some way or the other, its when we don't get a viable solution we look in the despair and think of dying. A prolonged connection with those sort of thoughts which increases suicidal tendencies.

Unfortunately, mental health professionals are often really, really bad at dealing with men, you can look into some of Elam's material for that

I think that's a great solution though

What counts as impulsive suicides to you @asparkofpyrokravte

I think there were suicide survivor studies that asked "when did you make the decision and why" and often it was related to a really recent event (like getting dumped), and made hours prior to the act.

But I'd have to go through the actual sources for that number from the website

I haven't researched that as much as I'd like for this sort of discussion

That's so true. Also mental health professionals mostly females, it's tough for them to understand the male psyche unless they are really experienced in their respective fields. We need more male psychologists. I think that's the key reason as to why men open up about their problems with their buddies rather than opting for professional help. They are often skeptic about the level of empathy that they won't have with the professionals.

@lazzzycarrot(30) / senpai(40) You can also look at the behavior of suicide survivors. While the risk of actually comitting suicide is greatly increased for those who have attempted in the past couple years, the numbers of those that actually do so remains low, below 5% IIRC

It's like 10% of people at some point in their lives decide life isn't worth living and act on it. 1% actually commit suicide, and some smaller number (0.1%?) legitimately hate life with a passion

except for the middle number, I haven't rigoursly confirmed the percentages

@John Wick And completely agreed with that

@asparkofpyrokravte do you mind if I go back to a statistic you said earlier, you mentioned that women attempt suicide 1.2 times more often than men I believe? How come some studies put that at 3x the rate and where does the discrpency come from?

As I noted at the time, ER reports

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/9qt24c/if_you_were_going_to_make_a_trifold_poster_board/e8d64br/?context=3

Some guy claimed that women actually don't attempt suicide more than men

I thought that was worth looking into

And I found that he was full of shit

But that what I thought was true (the 2x figure) was also false

Hrm, that reddit thread isn't as helpful as I thought it'd be

But anyways, that survey doesn't really have any potential flaws in its methodology, whereas the other ones that I found seemed more prone to double counting or self selection (very present with ER stuff, which selects for women who survive rather than men who don't).

How are the other studies getting the 2/3x figure though? Like, what flawed methodology are they using?

Ah, okay. I'll go dig it up, but the summary was that they were counting people at the hospital. So you get your failed poisonings, but not people who jump from 8 stories

I don't know if I am using the right words here but I do feel women generally are more pampered than men. Right from their childhood, everything seems a bar down for them when a guys' life seems to toughen up with every passing day, with more responsibility, more challenges and on a general basis less emotional support. And, this princess complex leads to emotional fragility on the other side, where with the chances of suicidal thoughts on facing a tough situation increases. Not generalising the fact, as exceptions always exist, but this is what I have observed. And I feel this contributes to the stat.

I can't remember which study it was I read, but I remember that female babies/children are more likely to be comforted when they're in distress than males are

I am not sure about that actually. Babies are equally vulnerable to diseases as their immune system is weak. Gender doesn't seem to be an issue here.

As a young child, I particularly remember being told by my father to stop crying when I got hurt, or he would 'give me something to cry about'

Same

I really need to go to sleep but I related that line so much

@lazzzycarrot(30) / senpai(40) :<

My family never said anything related to not crying. But whenever I cried publicly, I faced mocking rather than empathy. Somewhere down in the sub-conscious mind, I taught myself to not show emotions publicly.

Or If i cried as a child my mother told me to “man-up men don’t cry “

I'm not saying I never cry, but if I do I do it silently now, more akin to weeping

@InsaneCaterpilla https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6304a1.htm#tab27

There is a 2x figure

that is based on a survey

but it is only students

So it is quite possible I'm wrong on this

Here is a 2x ER study: Ghttps://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12888-015-0392-2

Oof, so many tables

So you're saying the flawed methodology in the first one is that it only applies to students, where females perhaps fair less well against the stresses of education, and are also overrepresented in education, and the second one is flawed by not taking into account anyone who hasn't been referred through a hospital for mental evaluation

Which study gave the 1.2x figure?

Yeah, the most common woozle for the 3x figure found here:https://save.org/about-suicide/suicide-facts/ appears to be from the CDC document here: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicide-datasheet-a.pdf, which shows closer to 2x for students, 3x was only for suicide attempts resulting in injury. Another cited one is here: https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-depressed-patient-and-suicidal-patient-in-the-Chang-Gitlin/25c937bfe845f9f133d794b5f2c917df114ecf67

Whereas 1.2 comes from here https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

I remember finding the actual data from 2016 National Survey of Drug Use and Mental Health was difficult

because it is in this document: https://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/NSDUH-DetTabs-2016/NSDUH-DetTabs-2016.pdf

which is thousands of pages...you can find it on page 2704

I'd like to share what is probably a very unpopular opinion toward reducing suicide, which is legalizing euthanasia. Not only would it allow people who live with severe pain to end their life, but it would bring into light more discussion on the topic of death. People would always know that it is an option for them, so they will be more open with themselves and others about it. I believe impulsive suicides would drop as a result.

What's your opinion on that @asparkofpyrokravte?

Found the right page for you there InsaneCaterpilla. You might also be able to find it in the non-detailed document.

which is somewhere

..

I totally agree about legalizing euthanasia

100%

But I'm on the /r/SanctionedSuicide train by principle

Not really about reducing suicide rate

I expect the suicide rate would increase. I think it *should* increase.

With the goal being reducing human suffering

..

I don't think suicide rates would drop.

I think that is more related to social alienation amoung other things, especially an inabillity to find meaning in a society that seems increasingly useless and self-destructive.

People generally have a drive to keep living and improve their situation. Men dont talk about things like ending their lives, but if they *did* feel able to... Perhaps they would be able to overcome it. Men have proven that without euthanasia they will kill themselves anyway, so I can't see how it would increase the suicide rate.

I don't think the problem of suicide is a failure to talk about problems. Having a better support structure (ie. reaction to cries for help) may help, but I think the effect will be relatively marginal.

Moreover, legalizing it doesn't solve even that aspect by itself. Note that many people, self included, are religious, and that has taboos about suicide and shit of its own

Religion generally had to make suicide a bad thing, I mean, they promise great things after you die so if they didn't there would be no reason for all their followers not to just off themselves

That's actually not true. Its mostly true of (most) protestantism, but not generally true of other religions

Other religions "base great things after you die" on service to the cause during life

A few religions, like much of the rest of Christianity, don't fall neatly into either category

Pretty much as long as you're faithful during your life, you'll get to something equivalent to heaven... But killing yourself breaks the faith no? Doesn't Islam have a similar tenet?

No, Islam is much more wishy-washy about the whole thing, unless you get killed in battle.

Killing yourself doesn't usually break-faith either in most religions. It might in Islam, but I don't think so.

It is most dangerous in the Catholic tradition of Christianity I think

It doesn't break faith in the protestant end of Christianity, it just counts as a bad thing that can't be taken back.

I dated a Muslim once... I guess i should have asked more questions.

Muslims do have a heaven-like thing, and it is largely based on being faithful, but god is great, and it is mostly based on whether or not he finds it in himself to treat you well

Theoretically being faithful should cause god to judge you righteous

but I think Islam is very big on the completely and utter sovereignty thing

The woman I dated was much of the opinion that everything that happened, including her falling in love with an atheist like me, was Allah's will

Very big on the complete and utter sovereignty thing. That said, she sounds like a ~~heretic~~ some sort of person who isn't completely right on their dogma

She wasn't strict in a lot of regards.

For example she didn't really go to mosque, and had sex outside of marriage despite living in Malaysia, where Muslims are more strict than say the western world

But she still wouldn't eat pork, yet would drink alcohol

I've dated people from Malaysia, the US, the Netherlands and Australia. Perhaps I'm subconsciously ticking off a list.

Oh, and Czechoslovakia

I once worked for a Muslim, probably the only time I have actually experienced genuine sexism, was an interesting experience

Muslim men do tend to have quite low views of women. One of the only occasions I agree with feminism on sexism, not that they focus on it like, at all

By sexism I mean directed at me specifically

To be against Muslims would be sexism

:/

Racism***

He was an ass, I didn’t like him at all

The thing is, I think feminism has bought into the racism thing so much they are completely blind to the attitude other cultures (such as Islam) hold against women in general

Sexism against women hardly exists in the western world. If they really wanted to fight against it then they'd aim their view toward other cultures

What do you think regarding that @Abbysol?

Yeah, I agree, it was annoying, because I get social anxiety I preferred being up the back stocking the alcohol, the boxes where never that heavy but women don’t lift, so he got the scrawny 15 yo high school boys to do it, that annoyed me especially when I was already half way through the job, he would legit come out with one of the boys and tell me I couldn’t do that xD

Not like I was doing groundskeeping before that job or anything

Oof, yea, not like you could do it! Noooo, women are all fragile little things who can't do Fuck all >.<

It's confusing how feminists rotate from basically that opinion and insisting that women are strong, independant, and don't need no man

Like ummm... Pick one

@InsaneCaterpilla I suffer with ideation very frequently but i don't think legalising it would make me want to do it any more or less. For me it's more about the current dread and weight of life. Some days I'm ok some days it's just a constant level of hopelessness, dread and regret. I think opting out would still feel as shameful. Although part of me wonders if there were "suicide pods" or whatever maybe there would be enough change in the conversation.

That being said i agree with a right to sue for the terminally ill but i think it shouldn't be extended to mental health

Ideation? I suffer from depression too

Well half the time I have "flashes" that I can't control where I watch myself do it. But other days it's more voluntary to think about.

Dying isn't a bad thing. I think it's a hurdle to overcome. It always happens, when doesn't matter

I'm half playing devils advocate rn

That's fair. I know there are definitely arguments for it but I think that's a Pandoras box is rather not open. I just focus on silly things like survival skills and prepping. It's a good way to remind yourself that you actually do want to live. Plus zombies are a never ending genre

That's what I meant before by saying it makes you more open to talking about death with others. Make it something not taboo and people will feel comfortable doing it.

Did you see the video of the woman at dignitas?

No

I think it should be in place for people who are terminally ill or in constant medical pain, however I think to get approved you need to have lead up sessions is a psychiatrist and they are the ones who get the final say.

She's a hilarious old lady who just ate a bunch of chocolate as she fell asleep

What a great way to go. Eat awesome chocolate and sleep

@Abbysol the problem with assuming that someone wants to die must mean they have a mental disorder, is that it's completely untrue

Life is hard

It's ok to end it

Hmm. That i don't know

That life isn't hard?

Maybe not a mental disorder but definitely a lack of coping strategies

Just because your opinion is that life is good, doesnt make it easier for those others who it generally causes pain

Which shouldn't just make suicide a viable option

I mean it will be someone who can assess that there is hope for the future and you are just having a down, or if pain and suffering will continue so they can help you go down the right avenues to make it as little pain and less stress possible.

There isn't always hope. There isn't always a future. Your argument presupposes that

I didn't say life is good. It's definitely not easy. That doesn't mean you can't cope or find strategies for coping

I know, I am saying that it is someone who can honestly and unbiasedly say if it is really the most humane option or not

If life really isn't easy, then that means it is a foregone conclusion that some people will be unable to cope

My argument assumes life is unknown. You can't know it's going to be good but you can't know it's going to be bad either

And if they deny you assisted suicide they can send you down other avenues to help you find coping mechanisms

I would think how your life has gone is a pretty good indicator of how it is going

Doesn't mean it can't be turned around

Course it can. We can also give a cow wings and have it fly over the moon. What's your point?

People seeking assisted suicide may not have tried the correct areas yet, lives should be saved where they can, but in cases like terminal cancer or dementia or other horrible things like that, I feel people have the right to die with dignity

That’s just my stance on it

That's basically mine too.

Also cows flying to the moon is awesome and I want to stick around to see it

That and game of thrones hasn't finished yet

I get refusing someone suicide if they've been suicidal for all of three weeks. They'll thank you later. The same cannot be said of many suicidal people.

but isn't that only because they'll thank you later?

Ha. Well my point is yes, maybe they can have a better life. But if it doesn't seem like it, forcing them to stay is no better than slavery

Yeah, at what point do you really have the right to decide for someone else that they should suffer through turning their lives around? (assuming that, of course, it is possible for everyone)

Well I've had my flashes since before university. It sucks but I have shit to do

But that's just me.

I don't think it should be illegal which it isn't but i don't think it should be legalised. I think the conversation can change without that change

What is currently illegal is helping someone else do so safely

I think it should be legalised but under very, very heavy regulations

As opposed to terribly geurilla and painfully

Safe is a strange word to use for death

Its not easy to talk about something you're thinking about doing under the threat of getting sectioned.

But I get it

@InsaneCaterpilla that's true but that's not been my experience

I mean, I’ve had my dad scream at me to help him take his life, he fine now

@Abbysol I'm really sorry but he'd be fine if he was dead, too

It may be a strange word, but "safe", as in, read this and consider the result of the failure states: http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/firearms. And as far as failure states go, that one is relatively mild.

:s

No, if he was dead he was have missed his sons graduation today

No, dead people don't miss anything.

They lack that ability

I doubt he would agree with you, especially since it doesn’t just take your own life because it also hurts the people who care about you

Dead people can't agree either. I'm sorry, they just can't.

Being dead is an end to such concerns.

Then it is also Inherently selfish

It sure isn't altrustic, but one has to consider how much of a claim the world has on your life

Well, scratch that

It can sometimes be altruistic

but still

If your actual quality of life if gone, genuinely gone, then fine, let people die with dignity, but not if you are young, healthy, and have the capacity to seek help.

Hrm, are suicidal people inherently unhealthy?

If not, what of cases of young and healthy people who lack a reason to live, who feel meaningless?

Depends, if your life is just shit right now then no, wanting an easy out isn’t that abnormal, however on something like severe clinical depression, it gets a little less clear

It is possible for someone's life to be "just shit right now" for a rather extended period of time

Yes, but there is still that distinction

fair enough

My Aunt committed suicide, all of the shrinks said it was an inevitability because of her severe bipolar

Though I think the DSM V makes it hard to distinguish between the two

Yeah my bad days are hopeless. Good days I'm like "what was my problem?"

@James For that reason I think a sane euthanasia law would establish a months-long waiting period

Evaluation for something like this wouldn’t be a one off session, with consistent sessions with the same person

That's an interesting be dynamic

Though naturally I disagree with Abbysol on the evaluator (not opposed to mandatory counseling, but evalutator is different)

I do understand human errors in judgement, say it is like a 12 month cooling period with regular visits to a councillor, they can give recommendations, reduced cooling periods if you have been diagnosed with something that it either terminal or will severely reduce your quality of life.

I think it would be unethical to be one without the other

Well, having an evaluation is different from being an evaluator

One implies a recommendation, the other a mandate

Sorry, bad wording xD

😉

No I was replying to @asparkofpyrokravte not @Abbysol sorry

I think it would be unwise to be an evaluator without at least some counseling

Ah, that makes sense

I do think it is something that is difficult and will need to be dealt with on a case by case basis

Death being so final and all

Something being final doesn't make it inherently bad. So is winning the lottery. It's all circumstancial.

No it just makes it dangerous, hence the discussion about waiting periods

Also the issue of the mentally handicapped who’s family decide they don’t want to deal with them anymore but they don’t actually want to die.

I have no doubt that there would be sick people who try to abuse it to get rid of someone without any consequences

That should never be the case unless the mentally handicapped person expresses such a wish

plenty of people try to make another's life so uncomfortable they don't want to live anymore, it is hardly restricted to people in a power-dynamic

I would treat that as just another form of bullying

(for the purposes of euthanasia, not for other aspects of law)

Hence the need for some kind of outside evaluation, maybe the solution isn’t death but just getting them somewhere they can feel safe from abuse

as long as the evaluation isn't binding I wouldn't object

That isn't an argument against euthanasia, its an argument on better considering of those with mental health issues

I’m saying it could just help to detect the red flags

Sadly it’s not that uncommon for carers to take the lives of the person they are meant to be caring for into their own hands

Perhaps not, but wouldn't you think that if that person could decide their own fate then the incidence rate would go down

Zz

Just fell asleep a sec

Nn

I’m saying we should have a system where people can die with dignity, but there should be failsafes in place to help protect lives where it isn’t necessary.

Personally I think any system of euthanasia is going to be pretty open to abuse, but I'll leave it at that.

I suppose I'd agree, but I think the consequences of not having it is pretty abusive

The way I see is to break it into kind of tiers of severity, let’s say 3 for now, Green, Orange and Red

Green would be basically accept, you have been diagnosed with something either terminal or degenerative and nothing can be done, this cases people should have the option to be allowed to die with dignity

Orange would be for people who have a reduced quality of life, basically my dad would fall here since he cannot care for himself, would have a cooling period and Carers and family should be involved but the decision goes to the individual

Red would be kind of like a red flag case, a lot of mental disorders and depression would fall here, would have a much longer cooling period and involved doctors and a strong attempt to help people find other solutions, I think here is where you need to be really careful with such a system

But again, would all need to be seriously a case by case basis

I like that

Even though my dad knows that if he tried to commit suicide I would fucking kill him xD

Hmmm

I do think euthanasia is a serious thing that doesn’t have a simple answer, so you need to be very careful when building the system to accomodate for it, especially the failsafes that will stop assholes from abusing it

Every system I've seen so far has been pretty poor. I'm not sure how it would be fixable, really. Maybe look up the Liverpool Care Pathway as a reference.

It’s also why I feel like distinctions or tiers would be necessary, since in the basic bitch example model I made, that red category would probably be at the highest risk for abuse, for the other 2 it is easier since medical doctors can back up for the Terminal or for people who lack the ability to care for themselves

I’m in two minds about it, I believe people should have the right to die with dignity but I do worry about unforeseen ways the system could be open to abuse

Loopholes... loopholes everywhere

This was to your previous comment. My internet is being flaky

My issue is that doctors themselves have an impitus to push people down this route due to lack of resources and time. It's easy to be cynical, and vulnerable people are very common.

And don't forget stupid

My god some people are as thick as mud

That too

Especially if you add 'greedy'.

There are lots of quite old people with unscrupulous children too. Instead of spending a few years pottering about gardening or similar, the temptation is to make them feel like they are a 'bother'.

You can wrangle them through the system on sympathy, and they'll murder themselves cleanly and legally. You can even pretend it's the right thing to do.

It's a very seductive kind of thinking, and you'd need to take it into consideration

Definitely. Eugenics is like Communism. Good on paper until you read a history book.

Yes, this is very much in that kind of territory.

It’s not eugenics though, and I said I understood the concept of human error, but I do think people who are terminal or have something degenerative should be allowed to die with dignity, instead of knowing how much pain they have to go through and it is all futile since they will die in the end anyway

Well it’s a heavy topic that makes a lot of people uncomfortable that doesn’t have much to do with Men’s rights so I’ll stop xD