well that was more effort than it should have been: I can speak now

Three. I forgot which disposable email the first one used, so since you apparently can't login by just username (silliness) I figured I'd grab a new one, bu then mailinator refused to recieve the verification emails...

Because discord doesn't need my real email

So the one with the anime picture (spark...) was the original, then "genk" is the one that I couldn't verify, and now this one works

Well it *is* a new channel

TBH, I'm not yet the sort of person who really recognizes a day for men. It is sorta like black history month (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtYS-P3s). If/when I get more involved then keyboard analysis it'll be more important because then that'll be an excuse to actually get boots doing whatever.

Yeah, they are fragments of my failures.

Eh, they are offline and will never be online, so having excess users there isn't unlike any other server.

@Men Are Human So how's the site going, anything you need?

@Men Are Human "In fact, you could argue that they [LGBT] are the first and most successful men's rights activists" Wikipedia lists Earnest Belfort Bax as an MRA, I think that predates LGBT activism

I remember hearing somewhere, quite possibly from a feminist, that boys used to outperform girls in schools, and then how school was done was changed to fix that. Does someone have a source for that?

Or a negation of some sort

--

Oh, that's a bot command thing, we'll that's awkward

||

Also, does someone have a copy of Warren Farrell's The Boy Crisis? I'd really like to know the issues just concerning boys education that are noted in that book

@turbulance4 I think it is pretty hard to get good information on a documentary before it is finished. Particularly since this one seems to be a bit far off from being finished (according to the website "So far I have shot about 20% of the footage I need to make this my first feature length documentary, but I must finish it. ").

Moreover, the documentary claims to investigate "if" there is a bias. However, Crouch, Angelucci, and Karen all show up in the trailer (the former two for only a few frames).

Ew, @ing everyone. @Silver_The_Bard: Trying to help a man in a (physically) abusive relationship? A male-skewed homelessness issue like coping with having to temporarily go through rough-sleeping and accompanying social isolation? (potentially harder to do without affecting continuity, especially with YA protagonists) Some other issues, like education discrimination or the draft might be very hard to fit into a story with an already-defined setting, and you've already done false accusations so paternity fraud might be too similar.

If you're looking for a list of men's social issues, this website is a decent source that explains things in a broad fashion without being a book on each one: https://rbomi.com/

Regretted everyone else screwing up, wow. Saunders is every bit as bad as her reputation

I certainly appreciated that one.

Does anyone here have a copy of The Boy Crisis by Warren Farrell? I'm looking for some information on the issues he identifies for Education.

my library has a checked out audio version I think

In the last bit, Allison Saunders and Warren Farrell books

I'm looking for some stuff from The Boy Crisis

Alright, In addition to that one, I've gotten some more sources:

- Biological differences

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders

- Mental Illness

https://www.autismspeaks.org/science-news/cdc-increases-estimate-autisms-prevalence-15-percent-1-59-children

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1469-7610.1975.tb01269.x
(76.7% of reading disabilities).

https://adhd-institute.com/burden-of-adhd/epidemiology/gender/

- Performance gap

Girls better in all school subjects, including math and science, and for
nearly a century -- but not on standardized tests: http://www.titleixforall.com/study-girls-get-higher-grades-than-boys-in-all-school-subjects/

- Some issues addressed

Reading issues are being addressed: https://equalitycanada.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Exploring-the-Boys-Crises-in-Education.pdf

- Education Discrimination

Teacher gender matters, boys know it, and apply themselves less because of it: http://cee.lse.ac.uk/ceedps/ceedp133.pdf

Gender disparities in student grades, presumably due to teacher bias, but
based on student behavior rather than ability:
https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/55134/1/682988421.pdf?version=meter+at+null&module=meter-Links&pgtype=Blogs&contentId=&mediaId=&referrer=&priority=true&action=click&contentCollection=meter-links-click

OECD concurs: http://www.oecd.org/newsroom/early-gender-gaps-drive-career-choices-and-employment-opportunities.htm

One attempt to quantify this bias suggests that "Over the four years of middle
school, teachers’ gender bias against boys accounts for 21 percent of boys
falling behind girls in math." https://mitili.mit.edu/sites/default/files/project-documents/SEII-Discussion-Paper-2016.07-Terrier.pdf

Unfortunately, The Boy Crisis doesn't really help that much with explaining boy's education issues because its sources are kinda shite. For instance, it notes that boys are much less enthused about school than they used to be, but when looking at the data that is equally an issue for girls. One thing the book does help with is noting that broken families really, really hurt and are part of a vicious cycle (failures at school are more likely to have failed marriages and failed jobs, which cause failures at school for the next generation).

I'll see if I can put something together with that in the coming days

but if I don't get finished for some reason, that should provide fertile ground for explaining the goings on for boy's issues in education

--

Oh, right, that bot

Other interesting things to look at are that when girls face similar issues that boys are suffering from failures in motivation, changes in pedagogy are recommended: https://www.theguardian.com/world/us-news-blog/2013/feb/05/girls-science-gender-gap-fixies.

And that while most gender bias seems based on the sources I found to be based in classroom behavior, some is direct sexism: http://reason.com/archives/2018/05/23/prof-bumps-female-students-stem-grades-b

I was also looking for a study where schoolwork was submitted using pseudonyms that got graded differently based on gender, but couldn't find it.

Say, does anyone remember a study where someone submitted the exact same schoolwork with different gendered names and found gender bias that way?

I think I remember that was a thing

but can't find it

I found a bunch of teaching bias studies (check the men-are-human channel), but that research largely points to bias against male classroom behaviors, rather than being straight up "oh, it sounds male, lets mark it down"

I suspect that most teaching bias can be explained that way

but I thought I remembered there was one study that couldn't quite be explained that way

Oh shit, that's a really good source

I intend to, we'll see if I can pull something together in the coming days

Also, to keep things in this channel up to date, @InsaneCaterpilla provided a an excellent source from France showing that it isn't likely just classroom behavior driving the bias: https://www.ipp.eu/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/n14-notesIPP-december2014.pdf

Thanks!

Significant is a technical term

It basically means nontrivial

Right, but you hardly expect the first few studies to quantify the problem to fully establish causal relationships

Careful, those are actually all studies I linked above just with different covers, except for the Israel study. Note that the OECD study, if you look at the actual source material instead of the headlines basically moves mountains to make a feminist justification for the gender bias. Though the actual OECD press release that I linked states the teacher bias more clearly than either the source material or the internationalednews article.

That Israel study is gold though!

Unlike the other studies concerning teacher bias which had all read the prior literature and said basically "as expected, teachers mark down boys...", the Israel study actually notes in the abstract that contrary to expectations teachers don't mark down girls, rather they mark down boys

"male students face discrimination in *each* subject" is right there in the abstract

Good point

I'll do that

Same one as what?

Oh, lol

oops

Hrm, the Israel study, unlike the other studies is based off of two different exams, rather than the same exam randomly split into blind and non-blind groups. This serves as something of a confounding factor, since I suspect boys are simply legitimately better at standardized testing such as SATs -- for reasons completely separate from the course material. SATs are dumb. Thus the Israel paper's conclusion that boys were statistically significantly discriminated against in math is suspect

Even though that would jive with the subreddit's anecdotal experience of discrimination in math

That 0.48 of a standard deviation discrimination in literature though

Ouchie

I'm not going to look for that, because my main sources for the gender bias here doesn't have this failing, both the blind and non-blind scores were the same test

The betting one was of this sort, for instance

And wasn't a standardized test either

However

I am planning to use https://www.theguardian.com/world/us-news-blog/2013/feb/05/girls-science-gender-gap-fixies

In order to say that girl's issues with school environment are taken seriously

Because this goes way beyond just testing results

There are probably better sources for this sort of thing

but I'm not going to make a major point out of it

If you have one I wouldn't turn it down though

Car insurance is definitely annoying as a man. That said, since that is descrimination based on real-life behavioral differences, I'm not too annoyed. What is *more* annoying is when this logic is not applied to insurance where girls real-life behaviors and physiology isn't taken into account in the same way -- health insurance

You can say that twice

Glad I'm up here in Canada

oh, dang, I seem to have myscopied the link

https://www.theguardian.com/world/us-news-blog/2013/feb/05/girls-science-gender-gap-fix

Not sure how that came out as fixies instead of fix, but hey

Hrm, that's actually not useful to me

It points out taxpayer dollars trying to get girls into STEM

but that is very employment focused

whereas I'm looking for schoolroom changes.

Another thing I'm looking for is some study or aticle that notes that schoolroom behavioral differences, like boy's figeting. I can only get the abstract for this thing, and not the whole work: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.2044-8279.1993.tb01043.x

indeed

I also found this article: https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/06/stop-penalizing-boys-for-not-being-able-to-sit-still-at-school/276976/ (great article, btw), but it mentions toxic masculinity at the end, whereas I'm looking to make something less provocative that would even fit into the /r/MensLib community, since most of the boy's education stuff that I'm digging up really ought not to be contentious.

For the most part I have enough sources, but that'd be nice to bridge the gap and hit the last point I need to hit

indeed

I probably won't mention it, but this study suggests that "sedentary recess activity" means less figeting and more attention, but vigorous recess activity doesn't help much: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Smith34/publication/249797867_School_Recess_Implications_for_Education_and_Development/links/5672a47108aeb8b21c70d119/School-Recess-Implications-for-Education-and-Development.pdf

It is also a 1993 study

@InsaneCaterpilla see page 58 about halfway down the document, "Cognitive Outcomes". They were discussing previous work by Pellegrini and Davis

Indeed, moreover, a student willingly engaging in "sedentary recess activity" could also mean they don't feel the need to move as much

could be a confounding variable

you'd need to actually put people in a room and force them play with legos or something

an entire classful

Yeah, it's me and Jango that's written to

'cause we were defending the insurance practice

Oh, @Men Are Human, the reason the Israel study didn't cite prior literature, was because it *was* the prior literature. The betting study (Ouazad & Page) literally cites it as the prior literature and the reason the result was expected in the first place.

Alright, I've got a reasonable handle on the first half of something article-y, and will put it down for the day.

..

Boys have particular needs with regard to education. As is well known, [boys
and girls are different](
https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders
), physiologically, with regard how they process
information and that has an impact on how they handle a classroom setting.
Boys have harder time sitting still and focusing on a lecture, for instance, a
very difficult behavioral difference to accomodate.

Boys' brains are also more prone to special needs. Boys are more likely to
have [learning
disabilities, speech
impediments](https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED492634.pdf), [reading
disabilities](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1469-7610.1975.tb01269.x),
[autism](https://www.autismspeaks.org/science-news/cdc-increases-estimate-autisms-prevalence-15-percent-1-59-children),
and of course,
[ADHD](https://adhd-institute.com/burden-of-adhd/epidemiology/gender/). And
all of these by a factor of two or more (and in the case of autism and ADHD, much more).

Girls fare better than boys in all all school subjects, including math and
science. Moreover, contrary to popular belief boys falling behind girls is not
new, [but has been happening for nearly a
century](https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/04/girls-grades.aspx).
The gender
Education for boys is a serious and multifaceted issue with far
reaching consequences on boys lives. The education specifically of boys
deserves special attention. In some ways the school system is responding and
making excellent progress, but in many ways this is still not the case.

In fact, schools themselves exacerbate and directly cause part of the problem.
For at least the last decade researchers have been finding that [boys score
higher when graded
anonymously](https://www.ipp.eu/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/n14-notesIPP-december2014.pdf).
This is reliably reproduced across nationalities. For some reason, teachers
seem biased against boys: when they don't know they are grading a boy, he gets
a grade bump. And when boys are discriminated against in this way, [they
notice](http://cee.lse.ac.uk/ceedps/ceedp133.pdf), and that could affect
classroom motivation. The bias is dependent on the teacher's gender.

..

I did it in reddit format because hyperlink-text isn't a discord thing