guys what we need is mutualism

did you really think you guys could have your own safehaven on the internet

the politics of the internet as a whole is right of the center

@olev explain how communists do understand economics

every communist nation that has ever been formed has collapsed on itself if not from war

venezuela is currently in this process

@olev

venezuela has been a transitional socialist state for a long time

the regulations it imposes on its citizens is immense

plus nationalization of important resources has led to massive food shortages and inflation

it's the regulations on the "private" businesses that's really killing them

the goal is to "nationalize" through regulations

it has essentially the same effects

they are essentially the same concept

government tells the private sector what to do

i do know what socialism is

i also know that real socialism has never been tried

and i also know that real socialism is impossible to achieve

without the use of the force of the state

which inevitably causes its collapse

because in order to bring the power to the workers the state must abolish any and all dissent and nationalize the industries

otherwise, you get anarchism

this doesnt sound that bad on paper

but in practice, whatever the state can do the private sector can do better

well by dissent i also mean people creating industries and capitalistic practices and whatnot

you get anarchism with no government

is this a debate

alright you cant have communism without socialism and you cant have socialism without capitalism

socialism is supposed to be the transitional period from capitalism to communism

im sure there is

and also between socialism and communism

explain

what is this dictatorship of the proletariat

is this supposed to be the violent revolution

so yes from this point the proletariat takes power ok

so now they enact socialist type policies through heavier regulations and nationalizing businesses

this works in the short term, as does all government intervention

that it does

alright so everything is now nationalized

and people are still working and trading with money

people are still being fed well and people in the lower classes now get richer

more people overall are in a healthier state of living

socialism works in the short term

i understand there is a difference between marxist leninist and marxism

what does your point have to do with anything

of course there is a difference between different socialist schools of thought

i'm talking about most types of socialism in general

all that have been tried and all that have been attempted

marxism is impossible to achieve

i know

im aware of the different types

lets get back to the communism scenario

as the nationalization process continues, inflation of the currency coincides with it

this wouldn't be a problem because the communist doctrine states from each according to his ability to each according to his need

however in practice it is problematic because without competition to run the marketplace there is less incentive to produce essential resources

in a capitalist society competition leads to better quality and more accessability and coincides with the system of supply and demand

in communism it has been shown time and time again that this kind of nationalization produces shortages of the most basic resources

it just doesnt work without at least some capitalist elements

the government cannot provide for all the resources of a nation

that is why the USSR and other communist nations have shortages

they constantly have to borrow from other countries

that are capitalist, mind you

until their inevitable collapse

a nation has to be at least self-sustaining

russia during the USSR had tons of resources

the nationalization of those resources led to poor management and a lack of work incentive

as a result the people starved

they were practically being forced to work on government operated farms

explain the bread lines and the high bread prices

1 loaf a day

alright

explain cuba's situation

they're a communist nation

how are they doing

they also have technology that was manufactured in the 1960's

their people are also hungry

economically they are going nowhere

why would a communist nation need to trade with other countries

how could they use up all their resources and not be self sufficient

capitalist countries are doing just fine regarding food

they constantly make more food and the store shelves are overflowed

what do you mean

what did i say

a communist state would be a better term

for all intents and purposes i am referring to communist societies and communist states

hey i just look at the statistics, my friend

it starves its people and you cant deny this

i can get some statistics if you want me to

i can see how you think that

but you have it all wrong here see

all types of government intervention is detrimental

government cant control everything and the things it does control are better off in the peoples' hands

this so-called "free society" promised under communism is itself an oxymoron

you look at venezuela for example as i said before with its regulations on businesses for the "common good"

leading to food shortages and shorter life spans

regulations are government

socialism is government

communism is government

its all the same effects

of course they're different in the way they're implemented