Then a socialist economic organisation is better. At least there you get to keep the fruits of your labor and have an equal say in production management.

is the toothbrush sharing joke actually a joke

How do you keep the fruits of your labor in socialism?

I do not believe in any kind of property.

black people should be property

but because i'm a commie they should be collectively owned

Because when you produce something you either keep it or are paid vouchers equivolent to the value produced

so money?

No

They do not circulate and are non accumulative

Keep it?

What do you do with it?

What vouchers for what?

you get to have as many sneakers as you want

I do not think you produce, things are just produced.

Well if you make a chair



Its your chair now

I disagree.

Seems like something that ends after you have about 5 chairs

And thats why you then turn them in to the federation or the collective and take your vouchers so you can buy other things

How many chair vouchers for a car?

Idk man, if you produce the value equivolent to a car but in chairs

So you'd have to make your own chair?

if you make chairs i guess

A chair is made. Now there is a chair. That is the end of it. But a chair is also firewood. It can be lots of things. Ownership is a tyranny over utility of objects.

I think if I produce a chair I should be able to keep it since it is a result of my labor

What I want to know from socialists is how they plan on having innovation, who gets to be the inventors?

Oh boy.

🤔

Im not sure what that question means

If you're provided with chairs, which you presumably would

How do new products get made

What is the point of making your own chair

If someone has a good idea then theyll put it forward

Who invents the iphone?

Who decides what is a good idea?

It implies that without private ownership, co-operation is impossible. Which is false.

The same people that decide whether something is a good idea in a market..

People

Yes but if everything is shared there are only some who gets to make a product right?

Theres no intellectual property so anyone can make whatever they want

What if someone's a terrible inventor, does he starve?

Youre still maintaning a capitalist lens through the way you are viewing socialism

just asking questions

If a collective workplace needs some innovation, they will do everything they can to make it happen

Its pretty unlikely that people would have 1 role in their workplace

I don't know, many people can only fulfill one role

Everyone has an equal say in their workplace, and nobody lives as an inventor or investor or things like that because we abolish capital accumulation and (probably) traditional markets

when the world revolution succeds, will the world be divided by the forms of socialism?

Smash the workplace!

But what if I have an idea for a new product but the people in the workplace always shoot it down?

before it gets made

@IVAN CHESNOKOV Possibly

That's how it's been before

Well that same thing happens now except with the market @Timo)))

So far what has worked best is the anarchist method

If people dont want things they wont make it

Well now you can go to a capitalist who will finance your product, is that still a thing in socialism?

for example: titoism in the balkans, maosim in mainland china, etcetc

Socialism removes the capitalist class.

So I'm fucked then if I'm in a workplace of people who don't want to listen to my ideas?

Youre fucked now if your boss doesnt listen to your ideas

Not really, venture capitalism is a thing

We dont think worker ownership is the perfect model, we view it to be better than the current state

Being able to work and save money and then go for my product I can do now

Can't do that with vouchers right?

Revolutionary Anarchism has no foreseeable end. Revisionist bourgeois tendencies threaten continuously.

Vouchers shouldnt even really be compared to money since they exist only to ration resources and distribute value according to value that was already produced.

They are destroyed upon purchase

right, so then I can never make my new product without convincing the people in my workplace?

Can you give me a scenario?

I need to visualize this

sure give me a sec

Let's say hybrid cars

Or electric cars

The old guard would not want it, they want to stick to diesel

My idea gets shut down all the time

How do I go further?

Labour aristocracy. This is why this makes me nervous.

So

If youve already explained the ins and outs of the idea at the general meeting but people arent really warming up to the idea then its probably just not something that people want. You could also go to a local communal meeting and give the idea there I suppose. This might be a bit saddening but its not like you would lose your position in the workplace

The people never had a say in if my product was a good idea, only the people in the workplace

Maybe I have a niche market

Well assuming we have abolished market exchange that really wouldnt matter. If the place you work at has the tools to make the car then you could make one for yourself.

Making an electric car by myself is not realistic tbh

Not without having the money (or time whatever) for research and development first

Right

But its just like capitalism, if people dont want it then it wont get made

It is worse. Profit does not always align with progress.

But with capitalism you only have to convince some rich guy or crowdfund on the internet

Not a guarantee for success but more options for sure

Yeah but you still theoretically have to fill a market demand right?

Demand is not rational, either.

Right, but many people often don't know what they want until they see it

Ford said that if he gave the people what they wanted he'd invent a faster horse.

Generally its the opposite of that

Rightlibs hate monopolies

government intervention creates monopolies too

Well yeah but they dont believe that happens

Look who lobbies for a higher minimum wage

It's not the small businesses

Anyway, after the revolution against state, I am going after the syndicates. Night lads.

pls dont hurt my syndicates

@Timo))) anybody gets to be an inventor

Right, so if 5 million people want to create a new smartphone, how would that go?

And what would be the cost of failing to make a good product?

@Timo))) anybody can work on a product.

Cost is not important.

only people's creativity matters.

Creating things people evolve.

People matter.

Product don't.

Best product is people.

Smartphones are trash. They come and go.

I'm not sure I've ever seen a good smartphone. I wonder if it is an oxymoron

It would be worse if you never saw a good man.

it would, but I'm not sure how much that has to do with eachother

Smartphones are useful.

But not important.

Right but you'd have to give people who want to make a new smartphone the tools to make them

who's MLKP?

You'd then send out 5 million peoples worth of stuff to them?

@Timo))) sent out? Are they not free to take it?

From where?

Straight from a factory?

From anywhere.

From factories too.

Is there a limit to what they can take?

@Sampuka Turkish

@Timo))) There is always a limit.

So there could be a case where you could say no, there are too many people designing smartphones right now

@Timo))) Do you need parts to design smartphone?

If you want to test it yes

<:dynoSuccess:314691591484866560> ***Shapeshifting Child Molester#6221 has been warned.***

Does everyone get to test their products or does someone decide which are worthy of it?

@Timo))) can't you test a public property you fool?

I don't understand that sentence

Is there a necessity to possess privately a part of the phone to test it?

Well if you're the one making it yes you should at least have the means to make the product

What happens after you succeed and ''sell'' it is another thing

@Timo))) you have to have it? It can't be public?

How do you publicly make your own idea of a smartphone?

Doesn't sound like what you sold it, as everyone can be an inventor

@Timo))) same way you do it privately

Not really, making it privately means I get to make what I design as I thought of it

How would you do it publicly?

Like internet was made publicly and like PC was made

Phones are no different

Internet made publicly?

Thought that was the government

@Timo))) It was designed as a military USA program

Right

Same way

And how would you go about making a phone that way

Do you need to be a part of the army?

If you can make PC that way

You can make a phone

Right, but be more concrete, I want to make a phone publicly, how would that go?

I think I answered how it is done. Now I have no interest in you.

Doesn't sound like it

sad

Just you talking about it sounds like bureaucratic hell

I've had 100+ hours of talk with better libertarian.

Is not interesting.

Socialist don't like talking about their concrete society

@Timo))) read a book about an actual proposed socialist society

fx: Towards a New Socialism

yayo

Right, I'm trying out war thunder

Soviet Tree

Germs don't get heavy tanks until tier 3 and you'll be screaming "muh russian bias" until then

@Sampuka
>read a book
Literally every argument from illiterate communiggers

I'm on the British team

@everyone look at this
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/declare-george-soros-terrorist-and-seize-all-his-related-organizations-assets-under-rico-and-ndaa-law

@Curie ``FULLY SIGNED``

Hola

https://discord.gg/Egq5STg

whats the difference between this and the other leftypol discord?

@Kloud There are lots of right wing people here, and the admins will not ban them or force them to be quiet.

Also no roles.

@Kloud What do you mean other leftypol discord? there is no official leftypol

^

wew what cancer

Kinda wish more servers were open to all sides, because it just becomes an echo chamber of bs after a while.

Rip Stasi

@Sampuka He probs means the one which was headed by Snow, this one splitted from.

Yo, I'm recruiting to a new leftist server. Join if you want https://discord.gg/A3bZyX9

the server is racist against nazbols

dont join

its run by class traitors

k ty for warnings

no problem comrade

all hail glorious nazbol

oy vey, the nazi kicked me for being a nazbol

I've been shoahed

actually the owner is the real fascist for kicking me

Fantastic

>asia and europe half the world

nice capitalist propaganda

racist as fuck too btw

racist towards the antarticans

The true superpower of the world

antarticans are the only true worker

Is pony <:RDsoaweswome:234400684919750656> for sexual 🍆?

@Chalin do you care?

I'm asking for a friend

wew

At least we can all agree that anarchocapitalism is the way forward

<:ancap:280811320541052940>

jk

Stalinism is

It's the only Marxist ideology to take root in a significant country

It failed because weak leaders took charge

And let the union stray from true stalinism

NO 🚫 TRUMP <:happytrump:287338722066694144>
NO 🚫 KKK <:moonman:283655821190234122>
NO 🚫 FASCIST USA <:antiracist:349804209706762254>

Your avatar is confusing me.

lol

y

Pepe is a shit meme.

ur a shit meme

@Deleted User
>racist as fuck too btw
There's no way this isn't satire

are you a western imperialist?

if you consider asian and europe "half of the world" you ignore africa and america

also aussies (Even tho most of them are invaders)

isn't that gmagik

pepe

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/antifa-domestic-terrorists-us-security-agencies-homeland-security-fbi-a7927881.html

@Deleted User I'm glad government gets a difference between anarchokids and more organized mature people.

WHO /NAZBOL/ HERE?

@Deleted User Damm the antifag in that picture looks awful

@Ulstèr-Scotch hell ye

bad.

https://youtu.be/xkEHzmBSqOU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQRNOX9eD5E

>american "antifa"

>as anything american

https://youtu.be/eQwxh68kKYc

https://youtu.be/CsZeB9PH2Ik

https://youtu.be/Hb0UMt5b9Gg

@Deleted User *Bourgeois reaction intensifies.*

How to organise, comrades?

Is the world already organised, and the role of revolutionaries is just to know when and how to 'push the button'?