por que no los dos?

who got upset cuz Trump wants to deport her toilet-cleaner

I, for one, welcome our new Mexican plumber airline pilot hombres

Kelly Osborne was it?

yes

god i'm terrible with remembering names for certain 😛

merit based with a quota, good

i always second guess myself

open borders bad

and that's what this comes down to

like how i sometimes think Tim Pool is called Tim Pond

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0TFayRZeS8

sorry, no borders, not open borders

I even love how taht other woman goes "Oh thats... No...."

she totally knew that was such a bad things to say 😄

yup

but all in all thats why they prioritise higher-value people for immigration, cuz its a safe bet

and it then gives the lower-skilled people less chances to fight over, and that means less people from Less-developed nations

Elimination of borders serves two different ideologies, neither of which I agree with. Corporatists would be for the elimination of borders for the sake of easier trade and access to cheaper workforce. The whole reason Socialists are for eliminating borders is redistribution of wealth. The United States is wealthy, and one cannot simply sit on their wealth, it has to be shared. Redistributed. Anyone who wants the wealth of the United States should be able to take it. At least, that's what I get from it.

take it, no.. .earn it, hell yes

I disagree on that, too.

I mean

I'm not opposed to immigration

you disagree with being able to earn a piece of the pie?

but I don't think the US needs to go about headhunting

I think we need more pies.

there are always more pies

its not a zero sum game

just because someone becomes successful doesnt mean someone else has to become unsuccessful

It's a zero sum game packed within a non-zero sum game

The US Economy is, largely, zero sum.

The World Economy is... mostly not?

existing economys that rely on renewible resources extraction rates are zerosum, if you find a new source of resources and have the ability to harvest it on your own dollor for a profit thats when its more than zero sum

Sure, but I can't remember a time when it's been zero sum in the modern age

Well, what I'm getting at is, if we've got no borders, if we just let anyone in - a deal that will likely only be one way

there's always been a new scientifc discovery

but you have to have a truly bombing potental for that or a dying population for immigration to be helpful to that

or a new business, etc

america is actually becoming more zero sum as time goes on

It essentially lets other nations raid our resources and send them home.

no borders means you aren't a country

Basically, yes.

But it's what's being legitimately argued for

I know

because more things are being owned, less things are being found in america

and I think it's wrong

I think anyone here thinks it's wrong.

when more is owned and less is found you find a plataeu in your economy

yeah but the debate isn't people here

the debate is, how can anyone think, in their right mind, that it's a sane idea

As I outlined, it's redistribution of wealth.

Basically, I propose that the socialists who are pushing for an elimination of borders view the United States as a whole as the bourgeoisie class

well 34K/year is the 1% worldwide

Exactly.

And equality can't be achieved while a 1% group exists unchecked.

It's absolutely mental, but these ARE commies we're talking about...

i don't think socialist really realize how poor the world is.

I think that's fair, as well.

if they did, they would realize that not even all the wealth of the US could raise the world even .1% higher on the economic ladder

it would mean that those same socialist would need to become mountains poorer than the poorest person in the US, as dictated by their ideology.

along with everyone else

It's as if they imagine a nation as an inflatable pool, and the economy as the water in that pool. If they remove the 'borders' of the pool, the water should fill up the space around it, right?

no borders + socialism = everyone made worse off, or no change.

Except it all gets lost in the grass.

the problem with socialism is that it is designed to block economic progress.

because being well off is viewed as a problem

unless everyone is as well off as you

unchecked captalistic hierarchies are a bad thing

unchecked socialism is a bad thing

the answer is somewhere in the middle

Circular hierarchies are best hierarchies.

Granade problem with socialism is that ita against human nature

It would only work in truly altruistic society

I think it works just fine in a extremely small populations too.

Basically anything under say 200 people.

Depends

It can

Yeah it can still go horribly wrong too.

It also works in certain internet communities

I'm just saying the only way it can work is small communities.

For example early subtitle maker community was pretty socialist

Hacker spaces are pretty socialist too.

Its because those ppl have another then material motivation that it works

other than material motivation?

I dont think lack of monetary motivation makes something socialist. Value judgements extend beyond fiat currency

The subtitle community had a government that took control of the means of production?

even if we use Marx's endpoint as our metric for socialism

which is to say, even if we're attempting to be the most charitable, and setting the goalpost closest to the situation being described

I was referencing the mentality of from each according to their ability to each according to their need. In hacker spaces it's a social contract that you help those who don't know.

And that the help be freely exchanged.

That's just called being a nice person and working together

You're being pedantic again.

Socialism and communism are whole political, economic, and philosophical ideologies

That is not pedantry

They do not have a monopoly on community

These systems are very clearly defined

Yes they are, and parts of them can be adapt, and don't have to be taken in their entirety.

And most of those parts existed before the systems were created

No one said they did, no one said that Marx was the first one to think up this shit either.

It just doesn't make sense though.