Well, interesting discussion .... got to go now ... we shall see how this develops, but advantage Democrats for the day/week. Bye.

The US disengaged from the world before both world wars. If we learned anything it's that US engagement is critical for world peace.

while i agree that US engagement is essential, I disagree that anything Trump is doing is intended to disengage the US.

he is negotiating.

Threatening to leave NATO?

it's about time we needed a big war anyways

if you pay attention, trump always negotiates the way way

>trump made mean comments
>democrats scared about the bluewave failing
yeap, thats advantage democrats alright

Insulting the leaders of our allies?

X is TERRIBLE. X is a raw deal! We're getting taken advantage of by X. I'm going to CANCEL X

@DrYuriMom In other words... the US is so badass that all the other countries on the planet are desperately in need of us and should be grovelling at our feet and kissing the very ground we walk on, in desperate fear that we don't abandon them again...

But you expect us to be the ones who're acting nice and pleading with them for... the right to help them?

Europeans have to fight every 70 years or else they start going crazy

then he'll say something like "If X did this, then maybe we could make a deal, but right now we're getting screwed!"

I don't get how those actions could possibly be making the world safer or America better positioned.

What actions specifically?

Then X, wanting a deal, makes some concession, then Trump is all smiles and sunshine, and a new better deal is negotiated.

The first step from Trump is always to shit on whoever he wants to make a deal with.

And it's been working really well if you're honest about it.

New NAFTA, new trade deal with EU, NATO agreed to increase spending, peace talks with NK,

@JustTom , I think all nations expect to be treated with respect. We certainly appreciated their support after 9/11.

Remember the only nation to invoke Article 5 of NATO is the US

Bush Sr and Jr showed how diplomacy works for the US

Reagan solidified a world order that has helped us

Why are we flushing all their work down the toilet now?

we're not

you are just incapable of realizing what negotiation looks like from a position of strength.

Leaving NATO should never even be an option

Trump is getting NATO to spend ***more***

Europe wants out of nato

It's like divorce. You just never put it on the table.

They arent even meeting the requirements as outlined by the treaty

And Trump got NATO to spend ***more*** by threatening to leave.

The world is in a different position, the US is in a different position, we need a new organization. You can't just keep doing the same thing as always and expect it to always work. Trump recognizes this and is trying to renegoatiate and fix old treaties and deals that are no longer functional or fair, and that we're simply being used through.

The fact that Trump's got the guts, negotiating skills, and BALLS, to actually step up and do it, is why people who aren't crazy lefties tend to love his stance.

not always, but usually.

Why should we respect them if they dont want to follow the guidelines of our agreements?

Whereas if nobody threatened NATO, the Euros would still be spending <1%

Pyrrhic Victory

It's not a Pyrrhic victory if a) NATO still exists and b) is materially stronger

Is that really the way we want to be seen in the world? As bullies?

You are not paying attention to the facts and are instead paying attention to emotion

We are already seen that way

All I care about is results.

What facts?

That they resent us?

That NATO still exists and is getting militarily stronger.

Take your pick of nations, south korea, japan, france

they see the US as a bully thats trying to control them

CatToday at 3:11 PM
It's like divorce. You just never put it on the table.

so if you're in a bad relationship where your significant other beats you regularly, abuses your children, you're the one working while your partner leeches off of you to go out and get drunk and cheat on you, etc. etc. etc.

Nope, Divorce can't be on the table! You just never put it on the table!

Sometimes it takes a divorce for the other person to start addressing their issues

In that case you divorce. It's not a negotiating tactic. You just do it.

Okay, then that's what Trump needs to do.

The United States is the World Hegemon but it has no clear and present threat against the world as a whole

I don't see what's so awful about saying "Start spending what you agreed to spend or the agreement is over"

But Europe has fulfilled their end of the bargain. Article 5 after 9/11.

I'm not saying that our deals are quite as bad as I've cited in my divorce comparison, but they ARE bad. So your stance is that Trump should just back out of all of them, period.

No they havent

Nato requires a certain amount of spending on defense budgets

Who gives a fuck about how they *feel* about us. They made an agreement and they need to stick to it.

Many European nations helped with Iraq

They have and they are

The five nations to meet this amount were: Germany, England Estonia, Poland and Greece

The nations of NATO are making the progress they agreed to for them to reach 2% by 2022.

Oh reallyl? did you know the amount is supposed to be 5%

They signed an agreement to reach by a certain date. It's still well in the future.

We don't even spend 5%!

So they agreed to pay half of the amount they're supposed to spend

@DrYuriMom I never knew you'd be such a hardliner about immediately backing out of all those deals. ... I thought you'd be more supportive of Trump trying to keep in the deals. But, so be it.

I'll support your idea that Trump should merely abandon the existing deals entirely, and wait for the rest of the world to come crawling to us begging for a new deal from square one.

Wonderful

It's 2% of GDP

Thank you, @Atkins

Its less of an issue for the US as our budget dwarfs that of NATO

And @JustTom , I said you divorce in an abusive relationship. Europe isn't abusing us. If anything, we're insulting them.

But many were (and still are) spending less than 1%, and many include pensions and social spending in that figure when it should be active troops and procurement only.

Europe is abusing us.

For decades they slashed military spending and expected us to defend them for free.

So we encourage them to get to 2%. We shouldn't be insulting them and interfering with their internal politics.

I disagree. The amount of support and money we're sending them, the unbalance of the trade agreements we have with them, and many other reasons, including that any time they want a conflict to be resolved, they keep out of it for the most part, then give this sidelong glance at us with this little wiggle of "huh? huh? Isn't it time you uh... stepped up?" - That's all abuse.

https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-lack-of-military-readiness-dramatic-says-bundeswehr-commissioner/a-42663215

I absolutely agree that the German military is a joke right now

I totally agree that we need to hold them accountable to improve

GUESS HOW WE DO THAT

They need to spend 2% of GDP

By threatening to shitcan NATO if they don't buck up

They need to standardize with US hsystems

AND GUESS WHAT HAPPENED

they bucked up

-_-

They need to integrate with each other

I agree with all that

***bu-bu-but feeeeeelings***

Hmmmm his feed

But respect?

the EU is attempting to create its own army, separate from nato

Is that such a bad thing?

@DrYuriMom There's 3 options here.
Option 1) We don't hold them accountable.
Option 2) We step up hard negotiating tactics like Trump is doing and force them to be accountable.
Option 3) We back out of the deals entirely like a bad divorce.

You tell me which one you prefer.

I'll respect them when they can put a sub to sea or a cargo plane in the air

Or when Poland doesn't out-tank them

The US should not be treating these nations with respect while they attempt to create a unified fighting force outside of NATO

Fucking Germany, land of the Panzer, with <250 tanks.

It goes against the very purpose of the organization.

@Blackhawk342 , as I understand it that only started happening in the past two years. When the US suddenly became an unreliable partner.

softballing it and politely asking them, "well uhm, it'd be.. you know... kinda nice if you spent your 2% like you promised. pwetty pwease." is akin to that first option of not holding them accountable.

Unreliable paypig*
The EU is utterly reliant on taking from successful countries while cutting them a raw deal

Its been happening since 2012

Perhaps they considered Obama to be an unreliable ally

https://euobserver.com/news/115686

Well it makes sense in that context

http://www.caef.org.uk/d108euarmy.html

If Europe were to need to act when the US didn't come to support, that have zero effective air-to-air refueling capacity

Speaking at a Social Democrat security policy conference in Berlin on 5 May, Mr Steinmeier, Foreign Minister of Germany said he favoured the setting up of a "European armed force' and that he would like to see moves in this direction speeded up.
Democrat May-June 2008 (Number 108)

Do we really want to leave Europe to their own devices?

I mean really?

Thats what they want it would seem

Yes. Yes we do. Because they can't manage right now.

What part of WW1 a WW2 don't we remember here?

Reminder that the EU is determined to overturn UK democracy because their economy is one of the main reasons why the EU is still standing

Once they realize they can't manage, they'll fucking get their shit together as they come back begging us for help.

Europe I want to protect.
European Union can't die fast enough.

And it's not about "leaving them to their own devices"
That's what blindly giving them support would be

This is deliberate consequences for actions

The EU experiment and NATO exist to a) keep France up, 2) keep Germany down, and 3) keep the US in.

Trump even wanted to cut a deal with post-Brexit UK

I quoted it once today already, but apparently I'll have to quote it again.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

If the EU is trying to force the UK into staying and undermine it's brexit vote (and they are), while their dictators are still running their own nations into the ground...

Maybe it's time the US step back and let WW3 happen for a few years. Just long enough to clean house.

>keep Germany down
Germany makes administrative decisions

They're also the ones leaning on smaller countries

Economically, yes, Militarily, not so much.

If the EU is meant to keep Germany down, it's time to scrap it

Well the EU army isnt done yet

There's still time for a home run

Trump says a lot of things, @Beemann. The problem is that no one can believe any of it. 😦

and I love again that when I undercut to the heart of the situation with a bold statement like I made again, no one contests it.

What does the UK lose from seeing the offer? They already have a mandate to leave

If i were Britain, I wouldn't feel sound taking a Trump comment to the bank

@JustTom , I thought you were being sarcastic.

They had a vote, the vote came out leave, now they need new trade deals and not a pseudo-exit

No, I'm serious there. The EU is causing more trouble than they're worth. If this is the direction everything is taking, we really should back out entirely and let them burn for a couple years before we swoop in and rescue them again. Just like WW1. And WW2.

Trump offered them a deal if they actually did it, and May decided to continue to undermine the public

To my knowledge, @Beemann , there is no offer to see. The US hasn't offered anything to UK.

EU is likely to fuck up the entire internet in January.

Iirc it was conditional on them actually leaving

Already fucked up a dozen countries with unlimited illegal migrants.

And they still haven't

@JustTom , European wars pull in the US.

Now wants to fuck up what tiny amount of military power they have left.

Japan pulled in the US

@Beemann , because Ireland

Not just because Ireland, because the ruling class likes the EU

@DrYuriMom You're right. And we will be pulled in again. But let them have their war for a bit first, it'll give them time to kill all of the people in charge who're causing the trouble they're in now, wipe out the insane lefties who're ruining their countries, wipe out the insane rightwingers who would push too far the other way, kill off or drive out most of the financial migrants that've invaded their countries for the last few years, and bring them back into a situation where they can stand on their own feet again and start moving forward towards a brighter future.

THEN we move in and help them end the war, and enjoy the great boom of post-war economy.

And where does Russia and China fit into all this?

ayyyyyyyy
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/defaming-prophet-muhammed-not-free-expression-echr/1292823

This isn't an experiment where we can control for all the variables.

Here's the thing- the UK holds all the cards here. The EU isn't going to cut them out of trade, they're still going to be dependent on the UK. Instead of leveraging this and getting what they want, May and co have attempted to capitulate as much as possible at every turn

Because they don't want to leave, the demos does

Um, as I see it the UK needs the EU more than the reverse. All the UK has for it is holding Ireland over the EUs head.

Lolno

arms providers, Russia will likely reconquer a territory or two, and China will use it to strengthen their ties to the EU for trade.

They may even attempt to field small armies to join in an attempt to sway the EU more to a communist ideology. But once the US steps in, none of that matters, because capitalism and the US military will soundly end it.

Look up who pays into the EU and who takes out

The UK is the EU's biggest piggie bank

Many of those banks are making moves ashore

I wasn't talking about literal banks what

London is in a panic over it

The country that pays the most into the European Union is the UK

@JustTom , but China is capitalist now

HAhahahahaahahahahahahahahahahaha

oh god, that was a good one Cat

O_o

>China is capitalist
Shitposting is in the other channel

Um, okay?

at best you could call it state capitalism.

China has many issues that hold it back and will continue to do so

But the Chinese have managed in a way the Soviets never could

State Capitalism is like a People's Republic
It's just a command economy

China also holds a stranglehold over many rare earth minerals we need for our war machine

The ideal situation in the EU is for them to go ahead and start WW3 just in time for the UK to waffle on their Brexit deal again, and the war to drag the UK in just long enough to flush out all the lefties and make them decide "oh shit, we DO want Brexit now, because we're anti-war", then let them back out in a kneejerk sudden hard-brexit deal.

Then everything I already said happen in the EU.

And... after that... let... capitalist china... get good trade deals with the EU? I think? Not sure how this would be a bad thing, if we take Cat at her word that china is capitalists now.

There are many private companies in China.

i don't know about command economy. the central government isn't directing quotas and production goals.

but they do have override power

and can interfere freely in any "private" business for government purposes.

Canada is exerts more communist/socialist control over industry than China.

Yes, privatized companies are a recent thing in China, but the grip of the Iron Fist is still strong.

i think the nazis would look at the chinese economy and say they had the right idea

The US exerts control over economies as well. Take a look at how we use governmental policies to prop up industries like ethanol.

not run by government fiat, but subordinated to the government.

China is still heavily communist and the leadership demonstrates it. The thing is they've realized that a capitalist approach to their economy allows it to flourish in a superior manner. They are still communists at their core and in all of their beliefs and power structure.

Agreed, @JustTom . See, I can say it, and not just over GLBT stuff.

😃

I think you are mistaking communist for authoritarian

Fascists don't generally have strong parties. They have strong leaders.

I think first people are mistaking socialism and communism

That said, China follows Marx and Lenin about as much as Donald Trump does.

"The goal of Socialism is Communism" - Vladimir Lenin

Maoism, Stalinism etc are Socialist systems. There are no communist systems because they die in the Socialist transition state

It's about strength, not ideology

I don't think anyone in the CCP actually believes in the worker's paradise

They've totally bought in the "capitalism with Chinese characteristics"

Chinese characteristics means a strong central state and the whole over the individual

But they still masturbate every night to the photos of Mao.

Who here has been to china in the last several years?

The CCP looks to the emperors of old. What was the Mandate of Heaven" ? To keep the rivers from flooding.

I know multiple people from there, who have visited there recently

Why?

Big public works projects were proof of authority to lead

My wife has been there. She's an Asian Studies major. Focus on Japan, Korea, and China.

My parents were a few years back and in many ways they are far more advanced than the west. Especially in regard to amount of corporate regulations.

[Virgin China vs. Chad Japan]

Honestly, the CCP is more successor to a dynasty than to Marx

Either way, fuck Marx and the CCP.

Rare earth minerals arent as important as everyone likes to pretend they are

They aren't?

China still owns 95% of the trade for rare earth minerals.

Hard to build certain electronics and radars without them.

More importantly china's housing bubble dwarfs the american one

Oh, China's economy is a time bomb. So is their resource issue, especially in regards to water and women.

G H O S T C I T I E S

F A K E K F C

Rare earth metals are simply put an upgrade in efficiency

China's nightmare are the two w's. One may be a bush, but not the one you think. :p

Its not as if they lead to entirely new technologies, just that its preferable to use them if possible

Women and Work

Women and Water. They work just fine. Well, unless you mean demographics. Then there are three w's.

But their demographic bomb isn't for a while. By then Japan will be a ghost country.

Japan's situation really is tragic

Theyve gotta losen up on their youths or they wont have a nation

Fukushima leaking out radiation, the birth rate lowering, etc...

It's mainly the birthrate thing tbh

Not to wax feminist, but Japan has created their problem their mistreatment of their women

Papa Franku, may I have the poosi?

How does that tie into herbivore men and NEETs though?

Herbivore men?

Are vegans that big of an issue?

Women cannot juggle work with raising a child. Young people can't survive on one income. Japan ranks 114 out of 190 in their treatment of women.

Herbivore men = not interested in relationships basically

And their men have an unrealistic expectation of a woman

They essentially want them to be anime tropes

Or at least a lot do

They have potential to do something great, but that's not always going to be the case.

Time to move to japan, settle and slay

I love a shipgirl as much as most guys, but I never could live up to that image

If you expect women to look and act like KanColle or Girls Front Line, you will be disappointed

I know that...

Tangent ahead, participate at your own risk
Iowa best girl, but not bombshell iowa, quiet nerdy iowa

That's not going to prevent me from seeing Japan someday. I just like their history and culture, not to be a manslut.

Oh its a great country with helpful people

I know some Japanese women who emigrated to the States because they couldn't find men with realistic expectations. That and the economy sucks there for young people.

Just be sure to learn the language a little bit before you go, itll speed things along a lot more

I'm working on it.

People there are terrified of using their english outside of the major cities

Iowa is cool

Or at least learn the international language of pointing and gesturing

At least they finally give us Yankee kanmasu