Cat, if you mean should other people be forced to pay for your care ... possibly. It depends how you arrived at this point.

I also think it should be managed by states and not the federal gov't.

10th Amendment

That said, there is a lot to be said about financing being handled at the federal level

Providing some level playing field so that states are not in a race to the bottom

As for healthcare.
Yes 😄 (okay no that's somewhat shitposting)
Having dealt with some levels of healthcare myself, I can say rather clearly that our modern system is broken beyond all words, and trying to force in a government healthcare system the way congress wants to won't work, at all.

IMO the best way to fix it is to create a bare minimum healthcare that everyone reasonably gets for free. Specifically giving certain barebones basic treatments, the kind that prevent minor problems from becoming major problems. That level of treatment should be absolutely encouraged on a universal level, and more people should be encouraged into the healthcare sector on that level to provide it to everyone on the government's dime, purely because in the long term, that would massively reduce the end-costs of treating so many people, especially when you see the absurd costs that are racked up doing late-stage treatment to conditions that could've been treated or prevented if gotten to early.

The media is pretending it didn’t even happen in the context of the bomber. Especially CNN. CNN , and other media are linking this to Trump in every way they can. It’s undeniable. They didn’t do that with the Ricin attacks.

Why do you think that is ? @DrYuriMom

That’s my point. They are acting like these fake bombs are making the sky fall. But a guy sends poison to Trump and others and all we get is the cold facts.

@Exiled Sentinel , because they don't like Trump? Is that what you want me to say. Okay, I'll bite.

I've been saying from the first statement that I see this lone actor the same way I view the Scalise shooter. As a lone actor driven by rhetoric to act.

We should talk about both in the same breath and hold both Dems and Republicans accountable for adding some civility to the discourse

But it has to start with the President of the United States who needs to start acting his Office

(IMHO)

Only one side is saying we can’t be civil.

Now, extended treatments, costly treatments, additional coverages, the kind of thing that the current healthcare system, privatized, covers, can remain privatized. Though that too deserves a MASSIVE overhaul. In particular, I think every doctor needs to be rated and the public should know what they're getting when they go to any given doctor. If such a system was advanced, you would very quickly have the best of the best doctors start getting appropriately well compensated, while less capable doctors are shuffled into the realm of cheap treatment for the masses that have little to no coverage.

No, the President is saying it too

Fake News

Prove it

Oh, for heaven's sake. I've listen to his rallys.

Show me Trump saying we can’t be civil

He says he'll pay legal fees

He's saying to beat people up

Lamenting we can't beat protesters anymore

In 2016 in one situation. Anything during his presidency?

Cat, only in defense ... you keep saying this line that is not true.

He’s said the opposite many times. And the Dems are currently saying that civility isn’t possible

*cackles* @Exiled Sentinel - I'm going to fully agree with @DrYuriMom On that one. Even if he's doing it for hyperbole, he does have that particular brand of inciting a little touchy roughness.
He did recently praise the bodyslamming of a journalist, so don't go there about it just being "one situation" and "in 2016"

Did he specifically praise him for that? Nope.

... really? Do I need to get the exact quote now?

Only Dems are pushing for people to be attacked.

Regardless my point still stands on the Ricin/bomber media coverage.

Back to Tom's last healthcare post, I won't disagree about public quality measures. I embrace them. My health system is even willing to be paid based on them. Then again we're one of the top health care organizations in the nation and all our hospitals were rated 5 stars by Medicare. 😃

"Any guy that can do a bodyslam, he's my kinda..." - That is very much in support of it, so don't even TRY to go there. Cat's got you beat on this one.

It’s clear the media only cares about violence going one direction

I think the hyperbole is going in both directions but you only see the side coming at you.

I see empowered men taking advantage of me and bigots threatening me. You see empowered women accusing you and radicals threatening you.

Real poison attack on Trump =😪
Fake bomb attack on Dems =😡

now, as I was trying to get to before getting on that derailment:
The difference is that when Trump is actually talking about greater scales of violence, as opposed to individual personal incidents.
Like riots, terrorism, and the rest of the truly crazy shit the left is calling for openly.
Whereas Trump is usually picking one or two specific incidents out in a very specific way. He's never called for anything on the scale that the left is doing, or is calling for.

So in THAT regard, Cat, I have to say, I disagree with you.

Eric holder said to kick'em when they are down, Trump said body slamming, I think any reasonable person understands that these both were metaphors and not an actual call to violence.

Eric Holder is an ass

@cat Don't have any time left to talk, RL calls. But I will just finish our little healthcare bit by saying I'm glad we agree on that level.

He was misquoting Michelle Obama. "When they hit low, go high"

Have fun, Tom

It wasn’t a mistake.

He meant it

I didn't say it was a mistake

I guess it was less a misquote then a twisting of

In any case, he took some really classy words and f**ed them up.

Like I said, Holder is an ass.

Also, ground up castor seeds are as much a poison as these bombs were bombs. Kinda, but not really.

Are they equivalent, absolutely. Is one worse than the other. Not really. They're both a symptom of us dehumanizing each other. Just as the Scalise shooter and the Giffords shooter are equivalent. The other side is evil and therefore anything is justified since it is good vs evil rather than ideological differences.

Desperate Trump supporter say the vans are switched ... looks photo shopped.

The Giffords shooter was balls to the wall crazy. The Scalise shooter wasn’t from anything I saw.

Did you see the Giffords shooters YouTube? He invented his own language and wore trash bags. One was completely insane, the other was motivated by politics. The G shooter was to crazy to even understand the current politics. Seriously look up his videos yourself

It's like the immigration debate. Build a wall. Secure the border. Make the border a no-mans land where anything bigger than a horny toad is disintegrated. But at the same time give those who have been here peacefully a path to citizenship that acknowledges their lives here and definitely welcome the dreamers who have made good. And design a rational immigration system with reasonable quotas.

Wall is only necessary because Dems. won't respect the law and deport. So the wall is stop them in the first place. Waste of money if the laws were correct and obeyed.

Blame employers, not Dems

I blame both.

If the laws were actually enforced there wouldn't be a financial incentive

No demand, no supply. I'm a demand-sider by the way.

E-verify and if you higher an illegal you pay big time, problem solved.

My (Republican) next door neighbor hires illegals to work his beautiful yard

He did the same for his lovely patio

Sure, fine him.

or her.

report them. no mercy.

I'm not the authorities but i thought it was ironic. Same with Trump wanting migrant help for his resorts while trying to dry up immigration

Have a self funding bounty system... the solution is simple if it was done.

Why a bounty system. Just don't hire them.

But business will never do it

Well maybe not necessary, but to ensure it is enforced ...

It's like guns. Enforce the laws we have before we make new ones.

True ... a good start.

The wall however is only because of lack of enforcement, waste of money.

lack of the will to enforce ... I should say.

The current atmosphere against immigrants is creating a poisonous atmosphere for brown people who belong here. It's why I don't like ideas like bounties and the like. Too easy to be abused.

Just require everyone to be checked on hire, whether white, red, yellow, brown or black.

Just always do it. No exceptions, and massive fines for businesses that don't.

You could make it reciprocal, if you make false claims you pay too.

Hmm,. interesting idea.

I'm fine with maintaining our borders. I'm fine with controlling immigration. I just don't want to fan the flames of prejudice in the process. I also think we need to actually get back to governing so that we can design a rational immigration system.

Just like we need to get back to governing so that we can work out a rational health care system

And a rational miliary

Yes, but I think we can all agree that we can't enforce an immigration policy until we have the power to control who crosses our borders.

So much needs to be done after nearly 30 years of absent governance

I doubt anything will change ...

I don't disagree, bookworm.

i don't believe that the democratic leadership wants to control the border.

As long as we do it without maligning everyone with brown skin and eyes and black hair

they're going to have to seriously change their tune before i give them any level of trust on that.

Of course not. Just some of them.

@Atkins , it's part of the tribalism. That's part of their coalition.

their coalition has to be broken then

their electoral prospects need to be dashed so they kick out the crazies and reform.

it's vital, because it won't take ten years before the republicans are corrupt and useless

Again, it's like the Republicans in 2009. Making Obama a one-term president was more important than governing. Now it's the Dems who are saying the same thing about Trump.

I really believe it is a lost cause. It will have to ht bottom somehow, and let's hope those that pick up the pieces afterward do well.

So it seems everyone here likes the "strong man" chief executive?

No, not really.

As I said earlier, unless the family structure is restored, Darwin will cull the behavior in time. In the mean time it gets worse, though at the end it goes exponential .... we are close to the final phase.

I would prefer a vastly weakened federal government, which would not be able to cause so much trouble in the first place.

Trump may actually lead to that, assuming sanity can be restored in his aftermath.

Congress may look at the wreckage and say "the executive should not be so powerful. we need to start doing our jobs again"

Failing that, at least he kept Hillary out and postponed the inevitable war

👌

I hope no war

I am fine with devolving power to the states

I'm going to become known as "10th Amendment Cat"

There

Mew

It has been said, no implement of war has ever been invented that has not been used to its fullest extent. Do you really think man has evolved culturally to be different this time?

Anybody here think Republicans will win after this pipe bomb incident?

meth, no ...consider Rep loose 2% in the polls, maybe more.

I think the Reps will maintain the Senate

Yeah me too

They are not handling this situation well

As far as the House, every race is its own game

They'll probably hold the senate, but any hope of holding the house is gone now.

Impeachment proceedings for Kavanaugh at least.

The bombers twitter account has no history on social blade before yesterday.

That’s what people are saying. Does that matter?

The kashogi thing, migrant caravan, voter supression, kavanaugh, and pipe bomb

I don't know if that is true. again, each house race is a separate game.

Well, we will spend the next 2 years trying to impeach Trump.

I hope not

Nah most people are normies in the throws of the media. And the media narrative now is that this is Trump's fault.

I sincerely hope only the Republicans will humiliate themselves that way

The House is wasting everyone's time impeaching when the Senate will clearly not sustain it

Oversight, yes

True Senate will stop it, though if the economy suffers they may run for cover and bail on Trump.

Impeachment? Only if something big enough to sway the Senate happens.

Flake is still there.

He counts as a democrat.

I though Flake is gone.

So 51:49 is actually 50:50

Now THAT is entire;y possible. Center-right Republicans bail on trump, all bets are off.

Flake does not count as a Democrat

And impeachment is 2/3rds of members **present**

Flake votes with the reps all the time

It depends on the economy at this point. Otherwise Senate blocks impeachment.

He voted for the tax cut

He voted to kill the ACA

He voted for Gorusch

But is he not retiring now?

Flake has a net worth of -53K and a job lined up with CNN after his term.

He voted for Kavanagh after some soul searching. What more would you expect from him?

He'll be an obedient servant.

He thinks Trump is rude and not living up to his Office

In that regards, I agree with him

But then again, I'm trying my best to learn why Trump's poor behavior is a good thing

Really, I'm trying. It's...not easy.

Trump's behavior gets shit done.

Acting like a weakling who is trying to just make everyone get along means the democrats win everything. And the democrats winning everything will turn the country into a fucking dystopia.

Not convinced Trump runs in 2020.

Only way he doesn't is if he croaks.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/california-man-using-blowtorch-to-kill-spiders-starts-house-fire

This guy got the job done, too. Not sure if the "win' was worth it, though.

I see Trump as akin to this guy,.

Maybe, he may see the polls and think why bother. Raise your hand declare victory and leave on a high.

See, this kind of ridiculous hyperbole ain't helping your case. Trump hasn't caused any measurable harm except for his 'tone'

Anyone here thought about Kasich?

And he's done lots of unambiguous good.

Fuck Kasich. That's my thought.

Kasich is a loser ....

He always calls or praises who do violent acts

I think his actions supporting despots is causing harm. See North Korea and Saudi Arabia.

Kasich is a democrat's idea of the ideal republican. A useless bland loser.

Atkins, yes ...LOL.

Again, praising despots and insulting democratic leaders.

How is that a good thing?

Alright. The alternative to trying to make a deal with North Korea was **THERMONUCLEAR WAR**.

Cat, I think you are stretching a bit.

North Korea didn't have to guys to do it

They know if they did there would be no North Korea

And as far as Saudi Arabia goes, it doesn't matter if we sell them weapons or not. They're still going to be despots. Except they'll be despots with more French weapons.

But what difference did Trump make? Pyongyang is still doing exactly what they were doing but now Trump is tied down by his fawning praise of Kim.

The French and EU are whacking SA more than the US

The difference is **NO THERMONUCLEAR WAR**

I'm too old to get reactivated thank you very much.

"Pyongyang is still doing exactly what they were doing but now " Huh? They were launching missiles ever other week. Again you are stretching.

And do we honestly think the Saudi kingdom is going to turn to Russia or China?

What do you want to do with the Saudis? Topple them? Ignore them? What?

Personally I don't think we can do anything to change their behavior, so why not make money off them if they're going to be asshats regardless?

We do nothing with the Saudis ...

Business as usual ...

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/21/politics/un-iaea-north-korea-nuclear/index.html

Besides, the current Crown Prince is a bit of a reformer. Women can drive now, and movie theaters are allowed.

I find myself not able to respond this this. I don't like it.

NK is a Trump success. They are talking more than they have ever have. Sanctions are still on. And the alternative? What you want to go to war with NK?

By the way, am I the only one around here who admits when she's been backed into a corner?

I suppose that's not a "strong" trait, is it?

War with NK would be a disaster for SK and Japan, so no of course. But it from my perspective it looks like Kim is playing Trump.

Am I now going to have to swallow the "Trump is actually a genius" stuff?

For sure, but the alternative?

I'm not close to biting that yet

How about working with China to keep holding NK accountable instead of starting a (trade) war with China. Convincing China that NK is more trouble than they are worth and that a Chinese installed puppet regime would be better for Beijing. That was what China was preparing for until Kim killed his cousin in Macau.

So why would China do this? Out of the goodness of their hearts?

Nobody is expecting you to say "Trump is a genius". We're expecting you to say the sky isn't falling and maybe things are going to be OK.

Because the media and the left want you to believe that everything is worse than it has ever been and that we're two seconds away from sending people to death camps.

It's tiresome.

NK, Trump's approach was unorthodox, but turn out ok.

In reality, the economy is fine. In reality, there's relatively little conflict in the world and what conflict there is is decreasing. In reality, there is no major push from the administration to criminalize abortion, or abolish gay marriage, or revive Jim Crow, or whatever other nonsense the left is pushing.

Everything right now is pretty good. But that's not good if you're the opposing party and want power.

Why was it unorthodox? @TraderPropShop

The narrative has to be that everything is awful and getting worse and the only solution is to vote in someone else.

But it could be better. /Grump

unorthodox in the sense many opposed the face to face meeting with a tyrant ...

<https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/26/first-read-on-us-q3-2018-gross-domestic-product.html>
<https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-southkorea/north-and-south-korea-agree-to-scrap-22-guard-posts-at-border-next-month-idUSKCN1N0082>

<https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2018/10/26/us/politics/ap-us-trump-young-black-leaders.html>

Objective reality contradicts the media narrative and breaking through that is really, really hard.

Wow the MSM is having an orgasm on twitter ...

"How many more Cesar Sayoc’s are out there, waiting to strike?"

Basically what I'd like to achieve is get some people who are like ORANGE MAN BAD to be more like ORANGE MAN OK I GUESS

Cesar Sayoc drank the MAGA Kool-Aid and allegedly sent bombs to Trump's frequent targets for demonization. Trump airily denies the slightest responsibility. Republicans? I can't hear you?

Trump didn't change anything re: NK, though. He just boxed himself in by saying glowing things about a murderer and despot.

Cat, I disagree on NK. But whatever ...

As far as China, NK misbehaving causes China a lot of grief. NK flouts Beijing. I think they'd rather not have the Kims but they're even more worried about chaos on the peninsula or unification.

So I'm not sure how much you know about ICBMs, but there's this part call the reentry vehicle, or RV. It's the part that carries the nuke from orbit back down to the target, kind of like a space capsule.

It gets really, really hot on the way back in because it's going something like Mach 12.

If Trump were to assure Beijing that the US fully respects NK being in China's sphere of influence, then China can perform regime change.

It gets so hot that it creates a plasma ball around it, which blocks radio transmissions.

Cat, and stick your finger in the eye of SK and Japan, bad strategy....

Testing them is really hard, because at the point when it is in the most danger, you can't communicate with it.

I am aware, Atkins. It's why we can't talk to astronauts for about 90 seconds. It was during that period that Columbia disintegrated.

Trader, I didn't think Trump much cares what SK and Japan think. He certainly isn't acting like it.

Cool. Ok, so you're with me. Anyhow, the US can test these things because we have satellites that can reach over the horizon to do line-of-sight radio transmission after the blackout ends. North Korea doesn't have satellites. Their only way to know whether or not their reentry vehicle works would be what is called an "all-up" test, i.e., an actual nuke.

So since NK has halted testing, they don't actually know whether their ICBMs work.

Not 100% anyway. And they aren't going to start a war on 'pretty sure'.

Trump no, but for sure they are part of the equation....beside I think we are dreaming the China would control NK. Now your letting China play with us ....

*If* NK did an all-up test the US would have no choice but to immediately strike.

But now that they have stopped testing, we can talk and try to deescalate.

I've joked about that. I expect their ICBMs to be about as accurate on reaching their destination as Malaysia Air flight 653.

They haven't crossed the point of no return.

I'd say they probably have a 2km CEP

Which is shit.

But, well, nukes.

NKs guarantee is that they can flatten Seoul almost instantly

They could do that without nukes.

Millions of lives held hostage

Exactly

Yep. So they can have regime security without nukes.

In fact their regime would be more secure without nukes.

No kidding

Because if they hadn't started talking with Trump the war would already have been over by now.

We were really, really close.

Like most people don't even know.

I honestly don;t know what goes through Kim's mind

We were moving munitions.

Like we were shipping over the bombs that we were going to kill them with.

But anyone could have talked to Korea. Trump wasn't unique. It could have been Bush Jr or Obama.

They didn't want to give Kim what he wanted

Pre-positioning equipment really subtly but not so subtle that the OSINT community didn't pick up on it.

No. Wrong.