men-are-human

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2018-11-15 11:10:37 UTC

This thread is for discussing new and upcoming articles from www.menarehuman.com If you would like to write one, all you need to do is attach it as a text file of some kind. Please archive all links, and remember that it it may be edited. All criticism is welcome, and encouraged.

2018-11-15 11:10:42 UTC

2018-11-17 14:21:17 UTC

If anyone is up for writing us an article on Education, that post about boys lagging behind and Feminists being fine with that is a great place to start.

2018-11-29 09:07:44 UTC

Alright, In addition to that one, I've gotten some more sources:

- Biological differences

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders

- Mental Illness

https://www.autismspeaks.org/science-news/cdc-increases-estimate-autisms-prevalence-15-percent-1-59-children

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1469-7610.1975.tb01269.x
(76.7% of reading disabilities).

https://adhd-institute.com/burden-of-adhd/epidemiology/gender/

- Performance gap

Girls better in all school subjects, including math and science, and for
nearly a century -- but not on standardized tests: http://www.titleixforall.com/study-girls-get-higher-grades-than-boys-in-all-school-subjects/

- Some issues addressed

Reading issues are being addressed: https://equalitycanada.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Exploring-the-Boys-Crises-in-Education.pdf

- Education Discrimination

Teacher gender matters, boys know it, and apply themselves less because of it: http://cee.lse.ac.uk/ceedps/ceedp133.pdf

Gender disparities in student grades, presumably due to teacher bias, but
based on student behavior rather than ability:
https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/55134/1/682988421.pdf?version=meter+at+null&module=meter-Links&pgtype=Blogs&contentId=&mediaId=&referrer=&priority=true&action=click&contentCollection=meter-links-click

OECD concurs: http://www.oecd.org/newsroom/early-gender-gaps-drive-career-choices-and-employment-opportunities.htm

One attempt to quantify this bias suggests that "Over the four years of middle
school, teachers’ gender bias against boys accounts for 21 percent of boys
falling behind girls in math." https://mitili.mit.edu/sites/default/files/project-documents/SEII-Discussion-Paper-2016.07-Terrier.pdf

2018-11-29 09:11:57 UTC

Unfortunately, The Boy Crisis doesn't really help that much with explaining boy's education issues because its sources are kinda shite. For instance, it notes that boys are much less enthused about school than they used to be, but when looking at the data that is equally an issue for girls. One thing the book does help with is noting that broken families really, really hurt and are part of a vicious cycle (failures at school are more likely to have failed marriages and failed jobs, which cause failures at school for the next generation).

2018-11-29 09:13:32 UTC

I'll see if I can put something together with that in the coming days

2018-11-29 09:14:22 UTC

but if I don't get finished for some reason, that should provide fertile ground for explaining the goings on for boy's issues in education

2018-11-29 09:20:12 UTC

--

2018-11-29 09:20:12 UTC

"TakeRep" command returned an error: Not enough arguments passed

2018-11-29 09:20:16 UTC

Oh, right, that bot

2018-11-29 09:25:57 UTC

Other interesting things to look at are that when girls face similar issues that boys are suffering from failures in motivation, changes in pedagogy are recommended: https://www.theguardian.com/world/us-news-blog/2013/feb/05/girls-science-gender-gap-fixies.

And that while most gender bias seems based on the sources I found to be based in classroom behavior, some is direct sexism: http://reason.com/archives/2018/05/23/prof-bumps-female-students-stem-grades-b

I was also looking for a study where schoolwork was submitted using pseudonyms that got graded differently based on gender, but couldn't find it.

2018-11-29 09:38:44 UTC

Thanks for the links. They will be useful in writing articles. Would you like to do one yourself?

2018-11-29 09:42:30 UTC

I intend to, we'll see if I can pull something together in the coming days

2018-11-29 09:43:41 UTC

Also, to keep things in this channel up to date, @InsaneCaterpilla provided a an excellent source from France showing that it isn't likely just classroom behavior driving the bias: https://www.ipp.eu/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/n14-notesIPP-december2014.pdf

2018-11-29 09:43:49 UTC

Thanks!

2018-11-29 09:44:25 UTC

Thanks a lot

2018-11-29 09:48:34 UTC

Yw x_X I get shy around praise, please don't make a habit of it :p

2018-11-29 11:58:09 UTC

Don't worry. I'll try to not do it then. XD I could just add a /s after the thank yous.

2018-11-29 11:58:28 UTC

Thanks a lot! I mean it! /s

2018-11-29 11:58:44 UTC

How's that? :D

2018-11-29 11:58:49 UTC

Well now that just sounds mean

2018-11-29 11:58:56 UTC

Sorry.

2018-11-29 11:59:13 UTC

I was trying to make you feel better

2018-11-29 11:59:24 UTC

I am not good at that

2018-11-29 11:59:25 UTC

Where's my Ferrari >.>

2018-11-29 11:59:30 UTC

XD

2018-11-29 12:08:44 UTC

If it runs Ofc that's fine

2018-11-29 19:44:53 UTC

These citations are all for boys being marked lower than girls for the same work in school:

2018-11-29 20:55:52 UTC

Careful, those are actually all studies I linked above just with different covers, except for the Israel study. Note that the OECD study, if you look at the actual source material instead of the headlines basically moves mountains to make a feminist justification for the gender bias. Though the actual OECD press release that I linked states the teacher bias more clearly than either the source material or the internationalednews article.

2018-11-29 20:55:57 UTC

That Israel study is gold though!

2018-11-29 20:56:52 UTC

Unlike the other studies concerning teacher bias which had all read the prior literature and said basically "as expected, teachers mark down boys...", the Israel study actually notes in the abstract that contrary to expectations teachers don't mark down girls, rather they mark down boys

2018-11-29 20:57:14 UTC

"male students face discrimination in *each* subject" is right there in the abstract

2018-11-29 20:57:14 UTC

Thanks a lot for your feedback. Those are all good points. I haven't read them yet as I have only just gotten back from work.

2018-11-29 20:58:44 UTC

If that is the case, I'll leave it to you to cite the Israel study. By the way, I'm thinking that mentioning what you just said in the article would be a really good idea.

2018-11-29 20:59:38 UTC

Help people see behind the feminist curtain, so to speak.

2018-11-29 21:00:53 UTC

Good point

2018-11-29 21:00:56 UTC

I'll do that

2018-11-29 21:59:00 UTC

@asparkofpyrokravte lol mate check your Reddit replies xD

2018-11-29 22:00:03 UTC

Same one as what?

2018-11-29 22:00:13 UTC

Oh, lol

2018-11-29 22:00:53 UTC

oops

2018-11-29 22:02:58 UTC

Happens to everyone :3

2018-11-29 22:08:05 UTC

Hrm, the Israel study, unlike the other studies is based off of two different exams, rather than the same exam randomly split into blind and non-blind groups. This serves as something of a confounding factor, since I suspect boys are simply legitimately better at standardized testing such as SATs -- for reasons completely separate from the course material. SATs are dumb. Thus the Israel paper's conclusion that boys were statistically significantly discriminated against in math is suspect

2018-11-29 22:08:43 UTC

Even though that would jive with the subreddit's anecdotal experience of discrimination in math

2018-11-29 22:10:03 UTC

That 0.48 of a standard deviation discrimination in literature though

2018-11-29 22:10:21 UTC

Ouchie

2018-11-29 22:21:28 UTC

I've certainly seen studies that indicate boys do better on standardised tests, and ones that indicate girls are better with coursework (so of course coursework has been increased over the last couple decades)

2018-11-29 22:24:26 UTC

A study indicating that and the increase of coursework could possibly be included in the article

2018-11-29 22:25:23 UTC

I'm not going to look for that, because my main sources for the gender bias here doesn't have this failing, both the blind and non-blind scores were the same test

2018-11-29 22:25:50 UTC

The betting one was of this sort, for instance

2018-11-29 22:26:07 UTC

And wasn't a standardized test either

2018-11-29 22:26:11 UTC

However

2018-11-29 22:27:33 UTC

In order to say that girl's issues with school environment are taken seriously

2018-11-29 22:27:46 UTC

Because this goes way beyond just testing results

2018-11-29 22:28:00 UTC

There are probably better sources for this sort of thing

2018-11-29 22:28:10 UTC

but I'm not going to make a major point out of it

2018-11-29 22:28:24 UTC

If you have one I wouldn't turn it down though

2018-11-29 22:30:21 UTC

I'm getting a 404 error on that link, mate, I'll have a read through it and see of I can dig up anything that might be better

2018-11-29 22:32:24 UTC

oh, dang, I seem to have myscopied the link

2018-11-29 22:33:41 UTC

Not sure how that came out as fixies instead of fix, but hey

2018-11-29 22:34:24 UTC

Thanks

2018-11-29 22:56:57 UTC

Hrm, that's actually not useful to me

2018-11-29 22:57:10 UTC

It points out taxpayer dollars trying to get girls into STEM

2018-11-29 22:57:34 UTC

but that is very employment focused

2018-11-29 22:57:50 UTC

whereas I'm looking for schoolroom changes.

2018-11-29 22:58:41 UTC

Another thing I'm looking for is some study or aticle that notes that schoolroom behavioral differences, like boy's figeting. I can only get the abstract for this thing, and not the whole work: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.2044-8279.1993.tb01043.x

2018-11-29 22:59:01 UTC

I was thinking along the lines of it illustrating that people care when girls need help but not boys, but I get your point.

2018-11-29 22:59:45 UTC

indeed

2018-11-29 23:02:16 UTC

I also found this article: https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/06/stop-penalizing-boys-for-not-being-able-to-sit-still-at-school/276976/ (great article, btw), but it mentions toxic masculinity at the end, whereas I'm looking to make something less provocative that would even fit into the /r/MensLib community, since most of the boy's education stuff that I'm digging up really ought not to be contentious.

2018-11-29 23:03:01 UTC

For the most part I have enough sources, but that'd be nice to bridge the gap and hit the last point I need to hit

2018-11-29 23:07:49 UTC

I like that article, the only thing missing from it is to mention the decline of such activities that they suggest should be used over the years

2018-11-29 23:08:02 UTC

indeed

2018-11-29 23:09:12 UTC

I probably won't mention it, but this study suggests that "sedentary recess activity" means less figeting and more attention, but vigorous recess activity doesn't help much: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Smith34/publication/249797867_School_Recess_Implications_for_Education_and_Development/links/5672a47108aeb8b21c70d119/School-Recess-Implications-for-Education-and-Development.pdf

2018-11-29 23:09:27 UTC

It is also a 1993 study

2018-11-29 23:26:27 UTC

Mmm, the main conclusion I get from it is that sitting indoors naturally increases boy's (and girls) need for physical activity. I wouldn't think then that "sedentary recess activity" (low levels of play) would decrease figeting in class... Which part of the study mentions that?

2018-11-29 23:49:28 UTC

@InsaneCaterpilla see page 58 about halfway down the document, "Cognitive Outcomes". They were discussing previous work by Pellegrini and Davis

2018-11-30 00:12:45 UTC

Hmmm. I generally agree that too much physical activity can just make students tired or 'too hyped up' perhaps leading to inattention, but less activity leading to more attention seems to go against other studies

2018-11-30 00:16:42 UTC

Indeed, moreover, a student willingly engaging in "sedentary recess activity" could also mean they don't feel the need to move as much

2018-11-30 00:16:53 UTC

could be a confounding variable

2018-11-30 00:17:09 UTC

you'd need to actually put people in a room and force them play with legos or something

2018-11-30 00:17:16 UTC

an entire classful

2018-11-30 00:31:39 UTC

Oh, @Men Are Human, the reason the Israel study didn't cite prior literature, was because it *was* the prior literature. The betting study (Ouazad & Page) literally cites it as the prior literature and the reason the result was expected in the first place.

2018-11-30 01:02:04 UTC

Alright, I've got a reasonable handle on the first half of something article-y, and will put it down for the day.

2018-11-30 01:03:46 UTC

..

Boys have particular needs with regard to education. As is well known, [boys
and girls are different](
https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders
), physiologically, with regard how they process
information and that has an impact on how they handle a classroom setting.
Boys have harder time sitting still and focusing on a lecture, for instance, a
very difficult behavioral difference to accomodate.

Boys' brains are also more prone to special needs. Boys are more likely to
have [learning
disabilities, speech
impediments](https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED492634.pdf), [reading
disabilities](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1469-7610.1975.tb01269.x),
[autism](https://www.autismspeaks.org/science-news/cdc-increases-estimate-autisms-prevalence-15-percent-1-59-children),
and of course,
[ADHD](https://adhd-institute.com/burden-of-adhd/epidemiology/gender/). And
all of these by a factor of two or more (and in the case of autism and ADHD, much more).

2018-11-30 01:03:52 UTC

Girls fare better than boys in all all school subjects, including math and
science. Moreover, contrary to popular belief boys falling behind girls is not
new, [but has been happening for nearly a
century](https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/04/girls-grades.aspx).
The gender
Education for boys is a serious and multifaceted issue with far
reaching consequences on boys lives. The education specifically of boys
deserves special attention. In some ways the school system is responding and
making excellent progress, but in many ways this is still not the case.

In fact, schools themselves exacerbate and directly cause part of the problem.
For at least the last decade researchers have been finding that [boys score
higher when graded
anonymously](https://www.ipp.eu/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/n14-notesIPP-december2014.pdf).
This is reliably reproduced across nationalities. For some reason, teachers
seem biased against boys: when they don't know they are grading a boy, he gets
a grade bump. And when boys are discriminated against in this way, [they
notice](http://cee.lse.ac.uk/ceedps/ceedp133.pdf), and that could affect
classroom motivation. The bias is dependent on the teacher's gender.

2018-11-30 01:04:13 UTC

..

2018-11-30 01:04:22 UTC

I did it in reddit format because hyperlink-text isn't a discord thing

2018-11-30 01:05:14 UTC

Topics to discuss after the half include the reading and language gap having been (and being) addressed and successfully reduced (and probably an brief argument that schooling ought to be responsive to gendered issues for both genders), and that telegraph article:

2018-11-30 01:06:31 UTC

@asparkofpyrokravte is there more of an intro before what you've put here?

2018-11-30 01:09:15 UTC

No, I imagine just the title being something like "Issues for Boy's Education" and then just hitting the ground with that brief statement "Boys have particular needs with regard to education." to justify an explanation and then continuing into things. It may need improving

2018-11-30 01:13:55 UTC

To me it does seem like more is needed mate... Something to engage readers attention to what you have to say. Just on the face of it, it looks like it wouldn't call the average persons attention to wanting to delve into these issues. Asking some questions of the readers at the start is a good tactic to engage people, just something as simple as 'why are our boys failing in schools?' 'What can we do to help our boys in school and what are the issues they face?' It may seem like handholding, but asking those questions and then leading the reader through the studies and conclusions makes them feel more involved/invested in the article

2018-11-30 01:14:27 UTC

Ew, it does seem like handholding haha

2018-11-30 01:14:42 UTC

But what you say is fair, it is abrupt as is

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