Are you for compensatory justice, like gender and racial quotas?

I feel like this is still focused around postmodern feminism

I severely disagree with that. It's doing injustice to the current generation, in order to rectify a supposed past injustice.

@DrYuriMom what would you hold up as the "good" feminism? Or the last good feminism if that works better

Well, then I might be misunderstanding postmodern feminism.

Because feminism has held those kind of tenants for a long time.

Listen to Erin Pizzey or Janice Fiamenco some time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix5-jqQYU1M

Those are valid counterpoints

But first I think it's best to figure out where the boundaries of the conversation are

Those feminist drove out Erin Pizzey, the founder of the world's first DV shelter, with bomb threats and they killed her dog.

It seems to me that some very foundational aspects of feminism are deeply pathological.

I find it a bit naive to simply refashion feminism as "egalitarianism". That ship has sailed a long time ago.

I think we should learn from history so that we do better in the future. That said, beyond a certain point the past is the past and we move forward not back.

Yes.

I am not generally a fan of "compensatory social justice"

I think the social experiments we are running now are deeply dysfunctional.

And they have badly, badly backfired.

The black community is stellar example of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVvnTByzTmA

When I am a fan of it, I believe in solving the issue early. For example, ensuring historically disadvantaged groups have good educational and nutritional opportunities as young people

There is a part 1 to this video, but, since Dave is always a little slow in his interviews, the most interesting bits are in the second part:

Rather than mess with the bar to get into Harvard, give all kids the opportunity to learn and succeed so that by the time they get to applying to Harvard they had an equal chance making something of themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5daNMXer2UQ

Yes, that's almost in line with Thomas Sowell.

Feminism was originally egalitariamnism

I think if you listen to his argument, you will find a lot to reinforce your stance and move you a little further over.

But that is where I disagree. I do not think feminism was ever egalitarianism, not even the first wave.

What are we defining as "original" feminism?

@Beemann , well I'd say the vote was a great start.

Equal access to state funded education

That was an unequal outcome though

Equal access to military service

And opposed by a majority of women on the basis that they expected it to come with draft eligibility afaik

Early suffragettes were careful to avoid having to incur military service in exchange for voting rights.

The right to apply to any college that accepts federal funds. Not the right to attend, but the right to compete for admission by the same rules.

And those suffragettes in hindsight were wrong

We learn from past errors and move on

But that's your original feminism and it's certainly not egalitarian

Well, yes, fine.

That wasn't my point.

Sure, let's move on.

But I will never call myself a feminism, because that is simply not what feminism ever was.

Few things appear fully functional and perfect on the first try

We iteratively improve

That comes off as a bit of a dodge

I do not agree with the conflation with egalitarianism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD65wnDGuTg

It's either egalitarian or it isn't, no?

Things here are moving too fast for me to view videos on a laptop :p

So if they fought for unequal rights, unequal treatment, then that's not egalitarian by definition

They fought for the vote

I commend them for that

Right. And to me, neither in theory nor in praxis, feminism was ever about equality. They just introduced the "equality" language when it was politically conveinient.

The vote without the responsibility that came with it

Now we fix that

Without the duty to their nations defense

But that doesn't retroactively change the intent

I will not ascend to this linguistic manipulation, so, sorry, I have to be insistent in rejecting that label for equality.

FIx what?

What rights are women lacking?

@Undead Mockingbird we would equalize or remove SS

Women have more rights than men

Which would equalize that which has been made unequal in another sense

Yes.

But that doesn't change the core issue

The right to be drafted and sent to a sand dune to die

So you want to rescind the right of women to vote now because of the original of it even though women now serve in the military and even have died in active war zones fighting for our country?

I believe Cat meant that we fix that by either removing women's rights or adding to women's responsibilities.

Yes

Wait, what?

Exactly

Equal rights for equal responsibility

I was under the impression that we were discussing Feminism's status as an egalitarian movement

Eliminate the selective service or make women equally responsible to it

I am confused now.

With Suffrage seen as the first issue

Are we talking about feminism or what?

And in which case, feminism was not originally an egalitarian movement

I think it's clear now that feminist movements haven't been egalitarian from the outset.

I thought it was general equality

My point is that feminism was never about equality.

I am saying feminism resulted in many laudable things, but over time we have learned of many errors which need to be corrected.

Like what? Women's suffrage?

That wasn't the topic either

Women's attendance in universities?

No, like the expectation of military service

Ever heard of womansplaining?

How were more privileges a laudable thing when it didn't come with the responsibilities?

I see no down side to women attendance in universities except in regards to quotas and such

My problem with feminism is I actually want someone who is literally just a housewife to
-Teach the kids because I can't stand the idea of putting my kids through a public school
-Take care of the house
And that's pretty much it

We have wreaked absolute havoc on the family and the justice system.

So you want a slave

And it's becoming harder and harder to find someone

My personal belief is that the government should not be able to ask sex, gender, or race on any official documents outside of identification documents or census

No that isn't a slave

I do not know which gender had it worse historically, I cannot put an objective metric on it.

But men had those extra "rights" because they were charged with defending their country to death.

They both had it worse in different ways

So here's the issue I'm having
It was agreed that it's not egalitarian now
We agreed upon first wave being the origin point, and suffrage was considered the startling point
But suffrage was not egalitarian. So what is the origin of Egalitarian Feminism? Is it just whenever it's convenient?