If there's any political experts out there who can figure out how long it'll take to get the necessary changes made to end alimony and pardon these people, message me

My guess is actually more like 4 years

Civil disobedience is exactly that

I mean Ghandi got people to starve themselves in protest

If it matters enough to them, they'll do it. And from how I'm planning this, these people will be doing a lot better than starving

And honestly, this is a big issue

Alimony and child support literally enslave innocent men

I think that's worth a little hardship if it means we can finally get rid of it completely

I mean, do you really think the better alternative is letting people stay in their home countries, and having their wages garnished, debts amassing, and having them thrown in jail?

I don't think so

Exactly

So ask someone who's paying what they think

Literally ask them

We can do surveys and polls for this sort of thing

But honestly, in my view, it won't go away until we can get overwhelming proof that the vast majority of women will be fine without forced financial support from men

And that won't be easy to do without some kind of strike

Whether she should even get to have the child the majority of the time at all is another discussion

But forcing men to pay women who likely have similar work credentials as the men who left them is ridiculous

Again, this is 2018

Most women are getting college degrees and making $30000+ a year, usually a lot more than that

Also, once alimony and child support are abolished, women will be a lot more careful about having children

Many will likely get abortions

The only reason so many women choose to keep children they can't pay for is because they know the father WILL

This is 100% about non-couples and non-married people

You think that alimony and child support happen to men in comfortable, stable relationships with the mother?

Because they don't. That comes when things go south and the man no longer wants to pay

And at that point, men should not be legally obligated to support people who can largely support themselves

Okay, I kind of get your point

So here's what I think needs to happen to child support

1. Judgements need to be based on the actual amount the parties are making, not imagined values based on experience that may or may not actually matter

2. There needs to be a hard cap on the amount of child support that can be paid out every year, adjusted for inflation

Some women are out there making 6 figures off that shit if they got with a wealthy man

3. If the woman is making enough to provide for herself and the child in a modest, comfortable lifestyle, an amount worked out by economists, the men should pay nothing

4. Before the child is born, within the window where an abortion can legally happen, the father should be allowed to legally opt out of both visitation rights and child support. If the woman decides to get an abortion at that point, the man can be held responsible for some of the cost, but nothing else

That's what needs to happen to child support

And alimony and spousal support need to be 100% abolished

What do you think of that, @InsaneCaterpilla?

Okay, then have the court award a laughably small amount. Like $100 a month unless the father agrees to pay more

Then I guess we'll just agree to disagree on that. I personally don't think it's right for men to have to support people who can support themselves just fine

Well we can get into visitation another time, but most men don't get much out of their visitation rights tbh

And since men mostly don't get much, a laughably small amount seems legally adequate

Also, I'm kind of worried about changing it to actual salaries

Like if women make nothing for many years because they're a housewife, how do we keep men from getting screwed over?

Well, what'll happen is that the man will make his current salary and the woman will make $0

He'll be absolutely screwed over

Even if the woman has a PhD and could clearly be making more

Do we factor in housework and the like to her salary according to standard industry rates?

That seems like the best option

No, I get that

But it's like a slippery slope at that point

Maybe taking care of a child means paying for rent

Or for other things that tangentially help

How far do we hold men responsible?

Okay, that makes sense. But in cases where the mother is overwhemingly unable to take care of a child, like can't pay rent at all, then the father should get custody

Like I guess a lot of those types of issues can be dealt with that way

Sure. I still disagree with you about what should happen if the woman can afford to take care of both her and the child, but aside from that it's been a very good and productive discussion

Thanks for working with me to shape some policy :)

I just want to come out with my story of how a woman abused her power over me to ruin my life for years

She was my first girlfriend. We started dating in my junior year of high school. I was inexperienced, she was pretty and interested, so it ended up happening. Things started out relatively alright, but eventually I started hearing things like "oh, men" from her while we were cuddling, and she'd hit me lightly on my body with various objects she happened to be holding at the time. She'd also joke about us breaking up, jokes that got more and more extreme over time. She also did a role-play with me in which she was pregnant with her ex's child after he raped her (I later found out that she was "raped" during a sex role-play between her and her ex) and tried to claim the child was mine. Eventually we were talking about abortion, and I said that if I ever have a child I hope the mother would keep it for the child's sake. She got really mad about that and violently objected to what I said, saying a woman has every right to an abortion and that my opinion should have no place in that decision. Finally, the day came when she basically asked me to propose to her at 17 years old, and of course I told her to wait until we were older. She left me the next week for another guy, and then came back for more of the same after he dropped her. We dated on and off for 2 whole years in increasingly toxic relationships without me ever having sex with her, and after that I felt ruined both on an emotional and sexual level.

Like, I couldn't even really talk to girls outside of a platonic context until this year, although I tried at some points, and failed, because I thought that this girl I dated was the norm, and that I should basically not try to say or do anything that I thought might make them uncomfortable, lest I get hit lightly, or insulted, or shamed. I was also always afraid that I'd just get used or strung along or something, or that women would hurt me once I opened myself up to them. I'm pleased to say that I'm finally starting to be more comfortable talking emotionally with women, and flirting, and saying that I want something from them. I'm especially starting to be more comfortable with my sexuality and wanting sex with women I'm attracted to despite her trying to make me feel bad for wanting it. So yeah, despite this whole shadow hanging over me for a large chunk of my youth, I'm finally recovering. Take that, bitch

P.S. Found out after the fact that she is a very serious and devout feminist. Not sure all of them are that bad, but I personally will never date a feminist after what I experienced. I just can't open myself up to that possibility again

I'd just like to keep this here. I don't want to make some big public proclamation about what happened

I just wanted to get it out there

A little late to the party, but she is absolutely crazy. When I heard about the sex stuff I thought she was just flirting with you in a very immature and twisted way, that isn't okay by the way, but by the end of it I have pretty much nothing else remotely nice to say about her. Your guy friend is wrong by the way, being a man doesn't mean you can't be raped or can't suffer trauma. I heard once that a soldier got raped by a pregnant woman who said he'd hurt the baby if he resisted. So yeah, even if you're buff as fuck and can fight back, which not all men are, sometimes the mental shock of the situation or your attacker's manipulation can keep you from resisting

I just wanna thank r/mensrights and the manosphere in general for helping me to grow up into a strong, confident, and mature man

I found ya'll when I was 19 and going through a bad breakup. I was way overweight, didn't take care of myself properly every day, and was chained down by my liberal mindset and my experience with my feminist ex

Since then I've eaten less, studied harder, exercised more, and started talking and flirting with girls more

I am now comfortable in my own skin, look hot as hell, am sticking to an awesome daily routine, and am getting smiles from beautiful women daily

The road there wasn't all roses and sunshine, and there were some crazy people out there in the manosphere, but overall, I learned quite a bit that aided in my development from ya'll

Thanks guys. I love you. No homo though lol

@InsaneCaterpilla I disagree. I think in such a world people would get bored of their constant youth and security and do even more reckless things than they do now

Self-harm may even become a form of recreation

@blueorange22 Maybe that is true, but you sure wouldn't see me changing my lifestyle or my family's just because we have 900 more years to live

It's not about how much time we have, it's how we use it

We could either use those 900 extra years to live a "normal" life

Or we could use 30 to get on our feet

Like we do now

And those 900 extra years are just gravy

More time to do what you've always wanted to do, but couldn't

That's how they work

You will never age

you will never grow sick

You can regenerate any wound to an extent

The only way you could die was to extreme violence

I sure am too

My ex literally said stuff like "Oh, men...." when we were cuddling and hit me lightly with her hairbrush. She even shamed and gaslighted me into thinking my own sexuality was evil

It took several more women after her to realize that both wanting to have sex with a girl you like and expressing that intent to said girl at an appropriate time and place is totally normal and fine

I have a friend who took women's studies courses

It's basically biology + history but revised to fit the narrative

@S8N If you're willing to risk your A and are particularly interested in finding out what is really being taught, try writing an essay or doing a project about mens rights if you can get away with it

Use their terminology, but challenge the narrative

See how people react

A good professor should give an A on any assignment that passes the official standards whether they agree with it or not. If yours genuinely has no material mistakes i.e. grammar errors, and yet they still give you anything less than an A, then you know that it's just dogma being pushed on impressionable young minds

Also, look at what the official standards themselves are

Sometimes they will require some BS like "demonstrating an understanding of *insert field here*"

and use that to deny an A to dissenters

If so, use them to your advantage and really go out of your way to use everything you've learned in the course to not only show understanding, but also to challenge the narrative

@Men Are Human I actually had a discussion with a feminist friend of mine who's reasonable enough to respect a good debate, and when she described a book about a society like that one, I mentioned that if there was really a society in which most people were infertile and there was imminent risk of everyone dying out, forcing fertile women to bear children would be an understandable course of action to save the society from the emergency if they did not comply to anything more reasonable. She agreed

Any means is justified if the end is saving society from dying out. I don't think it's hard for most people to comprehend that

That's not how it works in practice. Oftentimes really savage methods used in tougher times are abandoned one way or another when society recovers