also only ML actually want that I think

Right, because Tsardom wasn't a good system either

But the Soviets were the one who actually tried to fix it.

Less government is the answer

And they fixed it too.

The only one because you couldn't be anything else, or of to the gulags with you

You're AnCap, aren't you.

I'm libertarian, not ancap

So that explains your ignorance.

Great reply

Anyways I gotta go eat, AFK.

but wanting less government is hardly an argument against communism.

Communism is the furthest away from libertarianism I believe

Unless you're talking ancommunism

the furthest from libertarianism would be like slave society probably

luckily no one wants that

not far off tbh

sure it is

Communism and Slave Society "Not far off"

Not being able to complain like in the USSR is something harsh even for a slave

but you're very right that marxist-leninist are more concerned about other things than liberty

but I honestly doubt a ML revolution would happen in modern 1st world country

I'm not even sure what it would be, it feels so unrealistic

because radical leftism is almost dead

at least it's growing slightly I think, but it's gonna be a good while before we have socialists or communists at the political debate again

Socialism is still alive a bit, communism is so taboo in the west(thankfully)

Thanks to misleading propaganda*

Something's going to replace the neo liberal governments, just have to see what it will be

both socialists and communists are concerned about the exact same

getting to socialism

And eventually Communism.

yes that's what I think, but socialism is for some reason thought of as different

that's because people think socialism is something it's not

people think bernie sanders or the scandi countries are socialism

But the red scare is the main cause why Socialism and Communism are so unpopular in the west.

which is frankly just a mark of shame on actual socialists

yeah, they think the Dutch system is socialist

I wish political discourse would return to a more ideological state

where people would call themselves what they are

Partly, but lets just say that communism doesn't have a whole lot to show for their decades in power to persuade the average joe

at least as long as the USSR is the main thing peopoel connect with communism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkSyRFghLRM

I wonder how long it'll be before leftism because a part of political debate again

at least social democracy made a comeback with bernie sanders which I think is good but untimately won't do much

don't see it happening any time soon, the left seems to be losing everywhere in the west

But of course, I didn't think trump would be president 2 years ago, who knows

The Red Scare atrocity seems to still have effect on today's Western culture, sadly.

I think it's more than that

You can think what you want, but you're one of the people who is poisoned by the red scare.

The way you talk you'll never convince anyone to turn communist

You'd turn stalin into an ancap

Hopeless

Timo

And what happens when the Netherlands goes into recession?

When all those social democratic policies can't be afforded anymore?

When the businessmen bleed money?

Your perfect little paradise won't exist anymore.

That's what is happening in Scandinavia.

It's an international problem.

If a serious economic collapse happen anything can happen

Fascism, communism, libertarian small government, all on the table

It's very visible what happens.

Especially in modern times.

I don't care for the current system either

the EU is a cancer

Then why the hell are you arguing against Socialism?

Real socialists are anti-EU

I know, one of the few good things about them

Socialists aren't my top enemy, but they're up there

The only way for actual efficiency is through worker's control of the economy.

Period.

No third-party regulations from the state, where it can be bribed and legislated out of existence.

I don't think so, the best people in the sector are the best, simply because they'd get richer for their better services, something stifled currently by governments colluding with big business

I agree with your last point, but not on how to do it

A bigger socialist government is just as volnurable

I disagree. People who are rich aren't rich necessarily for being "the better" at services.

Bankers scam people all the time

"real socialists"

Wells Fargo just got caught doing it.

COMMUNISM HAS NEVER BEEN TRIED BEFORE

True, but that's because they can buy power from the governments, shrink the governments in areas it's not needed and you get fair competition

No bailouts for one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KaU6VYnoJI

But when this "shrinkage" goes on, it eliminates the protections of the working-class. In reality, to the bourgeoisie, it's an opportunity for investment.

Let's take my country for example, America.

We're currently trying to repeal Obamacare (a shitty system nonetheless) to free the healthcare market up, so people may invest. Democrats and Republicans have their own lobbyists and rich people they appeal to, and Obamacare represented another side of that bourgeois interest.

get what I mean?

The current system is fucked, we both agree

No fan of the neocons and neo libs

I would say you are more Libertarian, but the thing is, self-regulation with capitalism is unattainable. That's why we have regulations come about in the first place.

And we end up in the same cycle.

A lot of regulation is very positive for certain sectors though

If you agree those politicians are bought and paid for, they're not making it easier for new businesses

Take the high tax for private businesses for example

The new businesses of today are the big businesses of tomorrow.

The average joe pays for it, the big business simply put their stuff in panama

I agree. There is a gap between the small businessman and the big businessman, but the dynamic between what the worker may do and the employer can do in the present and future is still there.

I'm not arguing for a big government.

I don't want the state to nationalize everything, unless they have to when they're under attack.

I want worker's councils, unions, etc so the workers have a direct say in government and the economy. That's what socialism is about.