it's a pissing contest of who can take more bribes, literally

@Sorghagtani Beki then you get allende'd

unless everyone is armed

and ready to defend themselves

@Sorghagtani Beki The only way to salvage your position is to show an improvement of worker conditions in the future of the US and a reduction in the disparity of income.

Although DeLeon did advocate socialists getting elected to enough offices where they change the constitution to exclude capitalists

lmao

Of course, no one is against that

that would never happen tbh

and worker conditions and reduction in the disparity of income do happen under New Deal Democracy

True, but the problem is that it creates a lull or complacency

I believe the socialist argument is that social democracy would always eventually turn into neoliberalism?

it makes the workers think welfare capitalism can be a permanent solution when it's a temporary one

that usually gets chopped up by mince meat in the future election cycles

even if it were permanent it wouldnt give workers the full value of their labor nor end the for-profit oil wars the US conducts.

Many americans don't like socialism because they feel they are only responsible for themselves and their families

If you can convince me that socialism is capable of being accepted by americans in the future, maybe my opinions would change

Democratic reforms only prolong the inevitable. Like using a tiny cup to scoop water from a sinking boat.

there will just have to be more reform every once in a while then

well Americans are already more open to socialism, millennials actually preferring it outright to capitalism

@Sorghagtani Beki The bourgeois class won't allow that to happen.

In case you haven't noticed, they control the whole government.

Public consensus is more powerful than any bourgeois

That's actually, objectively wrong.

The EU will never be able to take away the social benefits they give

Sorry, I know I sound like an asshole. But it's wrong.

attempting to do so would cost any politician their political influence

You live in ideology wonderland.

If we're talking about the US, public opinion has little to no influence on policy. Business interest groups and billionaires have all the control over public policy, oftentimes writing it themselves and handing it directly to a legislator.

likewise in America, any politician trying to repeal the ACC would be ruined

when the people experience a better society, they will never give it up

Firstly, the Democrats take bribes from the same donors that the Republicans do, for the most part, with some differences.

Secondly, any reforms inevitably get repealed or watered-down.

I do not think the ACC will ever be repealed

Stop talking and start reading.

I mean look at the NHS in England. The Labor Government did that, now Labour is fucked and the NHS is constantly having crises because of the Tories who have been in power for a long ass time now.

No politician would be able to do it without costing his or her political influence

and they need to be wary about elections every few years

In the US, the Electoral College already gives an advantage to the Republicans, and even if a Democrat were to win most of them are neoliberals and trying to get any, even small policy changes that are progressive will be a nightmare.

Even if bernie had won a lot of his policies would've been sabotaged by his own damn party.

yet even the Tories cannot remove the basics of the NHS

This is all irrelevant because none of it is pertinent to workers getting the full value of their labor anyway 😜

no matter what they try

@Sorghagtani Beki There's already been subtle privatization

They're able to defund certain parts of it and generate crises to convince the public that there has to be more spending cuts to compensate.

You mean how Trump changes policy every week. The people tolerate anything.

People are actually very critical of him

minus his supporters

For God's sake Sub we have a president who won the election with millions of less votes than his opponent.

they keep backing him for some reason

I think it's stubbornness

If Hillary had won we'd still have plenty of the problems we're having with Trump.

So you just contradicted yourself.

She wanted to overthrow Assad

She doesnt give a shit about single-payer

Trump is the least liked president in US history

she doesn't want free uni education

hillary is a neoliberal

what do you expect

@Sorghagtani Beki Hillary's approval ratings weren't far behind

Well your plan of voting doesn't work

voting got us hillary

which evidently got us trump

Sanders was very close to the nominee

and he would have beaten Trump

And even if he had won it would do nothing.

His own party is filled to the brim with bribed corporatists who would torpedo him and his policies.

Yes, he would have beaten Trump, but getting anything through Congress would have been nearly impossible.

New Deal Democracy worked because the people forced the hands of politicians

The Democrats even now attack Bernie and he hasn't even done anything wrong, they just have to smear him and attack him at every opportunity they get.

in America right now, we have concerning levels of apathy

But i'm optimistic that it will change in the future

especially with more left wing friendly adults

People have apathy because most people realize they don't have any power in the system

They did have power when they used it in the past

No, not really, though

the New Deal was essentially the Democrats' plan to stop communism from coming to America.

Did you know FDR asked labor union leaders to force his hand?

http://www.hoover.org/research/how-fdr-saved-capitalism

FDR and his successors wanted to address unrest without revolution

that included universal healthcare

And look how it turned out

some of it still left but it's on life support

because, again, bourgies won't allow reforms to last for longer than they're useful.

Trump is already planning a 800 billion dollar cut to medicare, which is MASSIVE

He's going to artificially cause a crisis with the ACA by preventing funding for insurers

and eventually with his own shitty replacement

His stupidity will cause people to vote for more comprehensive healthcare policies when he gets impeached

And what? It will continue going like that forever.

Reformist policies implemented ---> reactionary repeals them, ruins them ---> reformist policies get implemented --> reactionary repeals them, ruins them ---> reformist policies get implemented

♻

the main reason I am not very revolution friendly is because I doubt that it would work anytime soon in America

what can I do right now to make that more possible?

Join a communist organization that promotes revolutionary changes

they have no political power right now, and have no power to introduce change

read Marx, Lenin, Stalin, etc.

it is better for the people to infiltrate political groups right now and attempt to ease the situation

time will tell if a revolution is to come

but right now that's the best we could do

Political power isn't important because working within the rigged system isn't the tactic.