> a few animals

literally in hundreds of thousands, if the data from the time is anything to go by

data collected by the soviet system

which totally wasn't filled with liars and criminals

why would a farmer kill their own farm animal doing damage to themselves? @Xinyue

@ecojuche it wasn't but ok

a very reliable source

yes, which was a *planned economic system,* meaning they didn't gather data for shits and giggles but for the purposes of actually carrying out their system

will you ever answer that question? lol

@ecojuche wait so you trust a guy that never went to ukraine over the government that ruled over ukraine

🤔

hmmm

seems like some ideology in that statement

further, at least people with my position *have* data to point to. the people who are in the opposite camp have no data on the livestock

@Stern do you trust the govt of North Korea?

"SternDziś o 18:35
@ecojuche they weren't the food production class, they were the landowner class
kulaks =/= catch all for peasant class" "SternDziś o 18:36
@Aki they decreased it to send grain to the actual non-aristocratic peasants"

@AdorableStormtrooper idgaf about nk

@Stern nice way to avoid the question

@Aki yes

@AdorableStormtrooper I answered the question

So what are you even claiming?

@Xinyue will you answer the question mate? why did they protest?

Soviet Union actively needed data on the number of livestock and the state of the crops to even basically function.

@Xinyue ?????

so there's very little reason to think that this data was false

@Xinyue no?

It doesn't appear that you have a goalpost to move.

@Aki I claimed that the kulaks weren't peasants, they were an aristocratic class. someone else brought up the phrases of good and bad peasants

of which I used in quotations

@Xinyue they just randomly burnt crop and killed animals?

@AdorableStormtrooper they protested the seizure of the bourgeois property

no

they killed animals and sabotaged crops on an immense scale because they were capitalists

😄

oh yes, the billionaire Farmer Bourgeoisie, living in great luxury

i love that

not because they were caps tbh

So you claim that the starvation of those peasent was justified?

no

it doesn't matter *why* they did it, they *did it* and this was instrumental for the famine

meanwhile these were poor Farmers doing just ok for themselves

"for themselves"

Notabene the quote I posted earlier preety much debunked it.

are you an individualist

and mind you, they lived in socialist system. its not like they'd be left to hang with no food or shelter. they'd get their share. they just hated the Soviet system so much that they'd rather burn it all to ground in Ukraine than to give the filthy proles to have any

protesting policy that you support is why they did it, maybe not force policy taking people's property from them? @Xinyue

so then no taxes?

nevertheless, they shouldn't have been killed off

that was the big ethical mistake on the Soviet part

```and mind you, they lived in socialist system. its not like they'd be left to hang with no food or shelter. they'd get their share. they just hated the Soviet system so much that they'd rather burn it all to ground in Ukraine than to give the filthy proles to have any```


oh clearly, what happened after their liquidation is the evidence that they'd have definitely gotten their food

their food would definitely not be sent to the cities

and that *is* indeniable, we do know that the Soviets killed the kulaks in response of their obstructionism that led to the famine and this was a moral failing

"we know Nazis invaded Poland because Polish were mistrating ethnic Germans in Poland"

not the same thing, even remotely

@Stern "The statistical distribution of famine's victims among the ethnicities closely reflects the ethnic distribution of the rural population of Ukraine.[99] Moldavian, Polish, German, and Bulgarian population that mostly resided in the rural communities of Ukraine suffered in the same proportion as the rural Ukrainian population.[99]" "Total deaths Vary from 3.3 to 7.5 million, see death toll" But hey only Kulaks died.

but keep drawing pointless connections Storm

it was used as a reason

we get it mate

there's always a reason that's given for these things

what I said was that the Soviets killing kulaks was a *moral failing*

so your comparison doesn't even work

these were small time farmers most of them who soviets called Bourgeoisie and threatened to take away everything from them

they protested

@Aki only kulaks were actively killed by the government

not the only ones that died

Mate you make no claim.

let me put it the way it would actually go if you wanted to strike a comparison @AdorableStormtrooper

"Nazis invading Poland despite the mistreatment of ethnic Germans was a moral failure on the part of the Nazis"

there, fixed it

make you make no claim

wut

*mate

ok

Make a claim.

i already have

Then rephrase it.

@Xinyue nicely ignored the point as always, you stand on weak ground here so you have to constantly do that

kulaks were actively killed by the government, the peasants that starved to death was from a famine

imagine my shock

and the grain was exported from the region.

@AdorableStormtrooper you literally made a point that did not go anywhere

I fixed it, in the only way to make the point work

and then it defeated itself

bravo 👏

if you deconstruct it to its base level, then yes.

@Xinyue you made a non argument with soviet propaganda

so i Drew a comparison with other Propaganda

So you make no point in the end.

there's grain exported out of areas that have famines all the time

Lol

no, i made an argument from the economic data available at the time, which mind you is the *only data we have* - you on the other hand have no data, none whatsoever, to fall back on @AdorableStormtrooper

instead of seeing the general point, you hung up on the comparison as always @Xinyue

bravo on that👍

the comparison was fucking dumb so of course I corrected it

Welp so @Xinyue what do you think about the level of honesty presented by @Stern

just curious

@Xinyue economic data that they burnt stock, why? in protest of policies that you support but that doesn't matter

How the hell does me saying that the 600K-700K people killed under USSR is a moral failure, *translate into I use Soviet propaganda?*

them protesting isn't what caused the famine mate, the new collectivized farms weren't as productive

plus whatever was grown was sent to the cities

are you saying that burning grain and killing livestock during a famine is justified just because you dont like the policy @AdorableStormtrooper

If anything that's me delivering an indictment on USSR based on the data we have

you will never address any of these points