just keep saying no argument

You have provided no argument this is true

Ehhhh that is why you do not talk with commies....

just "but why did they kill livestock ehehehehe? it was because muh Sobiets wasn't it"

I preety much proved every point I wanted to make.

you will keep saying that no matter how many times i present an argument 😄

@Aki what points specifically

asking for clarification

The kulaks killed livestock and sabotaged crops, they were instrumental in causing the famine

even mainstream historians, or sovietologists of the most recent generation, accept this

what historians

That the famine in Ukraine was inflenced by economic policies of Stalin.

I agree @Aki

you don't even call them farmers, you call them kulaks to dehumanize them in your mind, that's what the propaganda you're repeating was intended to do

but the debate was over whether or not it was intentional

that the policies were meant to cause famine

it was influenced yes, directly even, in that a) the collectivisation did probably not go without problems even outside the kulaks and b) the kulaks did what they did because of the Soviet policy @Aki

```even mainstream historians, or sovietologists of the most recent generation, accept this```

argument from authority and a damning indictment of this narrative at the same time

rather than the famine being a product of policy

Well if you export the grains from the regions that are stariving it preety much is intentional... there is a simple cuasality here.

well I thought I'd appeal to historians since Soviet hard data wasn't good enough @AdorableStormtrooper

@Xinyue so maybe shouldn't have collectivized if the result was protests, and maybe shouldn't have collectivized in retrospect seeing that the production did not match up to the pre collectivization times just before it?

the export of grain was necessary to fund the further industrialization of the USSR

And it leads to famine.

It is a simple logic here.

Come on.

it would have lead to worse famine in more places otherwise

```the export of grain was necessary to fund the further industrialization of the USSR```

but muh ideology 😭

ah yes, don't collectivise, don't make things better for everyone, because a bunch of kulaks hold the rest of the population at gunpoint.

you know, the logical response is that "fuck these people they have way too much power over the country and its well-being"

that's literally a fact

ok prove it

the ussr was paying for industrial machinery from the west in grain because no one was accepting soviet gold

I have provided you with quotes and pointed out a simple causality.

Can you do the same?

because there is no real quasality here and I am not talking about the gold policies

@Xinyue when you see what happened after you killed all the productive small time Farmers that you call kulaks and Bourgeoisie as dehumanization tactics... the result wasn't things getting better...

you just cannot get over your ideology even if the outcome is measurably bad.

@Aki there is a causality

Small Time Farmers, you're not talking about Big 6 Banks or Farma, had too much power? @Xinyue wot

Ok so lets go threw it point by point.

you pay for goods in grain because foreign powers won't accept gold

and these goods are industrial goods that are used to further develop industrialized transports systems that streamline transportation and production

I mean it has become pretty widely known at this point, the Golden Blockade imposed upon the Soviets and whatnot

wow that is autistic...

give me stats

@Stern are you going to make an argument?

Prove to me that there would be a famine elsewhere if there wasn't a famine on Ukraine.

and prove to me that this cause of action couldn't have been avoided with different set of polices

that is a hella goalpost

finally

it's simple causality

And of course once the Soviet industry had 1) developed and 2) recovered from the second world war towards the late 1940s, nothing like this happened ever again, at any part of the USSR. It very clearly was a glitch in the system as intended due to the piss-poor conditions. You can quite clearly infer that it was underdevelopment, economic isolation and of course the hickups that accumulated due to the push to industrialisation that caused this. But nothing suggests that this was intentional on the part of the Soviets.

as you said

So you have no data no statistics no nothing?

do I have statistics based on alternate history?

I'm sorry Aki, but we have let people starve because that's us making a better world by implementing Socialism.

I don't live in data. I don't have every page and every file open 24/7. I am not a bot, I do not at will immerse myself in the virtual space.

Well you are making those claims so you have to have something to back it up

Everyone who died was a Casualty for a Great Cause 😃😄

but it doesn't seem like you do

But we do know that there was only one holodomor; there was no successor

I'm going to lay it out step by step again ffs

and from this, things can be inferred

ok go on

oh yes, there were never any food shortages in Soviet Union after Famines

It can be inferred that it was a once-at-a-time incident, in the early phase of the country's development, when it was underdeveloped and that it was never repeated that it was not intentional

It was the direct result of Soviet Policy.

not intentional though, most likely not

hence not murdering of millions

If you kill millions of people through written policy that transports all their food to the cities and many of them to Gulags, it isn't murder?

those 600K-700K people who were shot *were* intentional killings, so I suggest that the indictments on Soviet government focus on these tragedies

not the famines that seem to be due to other reasons than intent

golden blockade: ussr has to pay for industrialization in grain and western nations no longer accept gold as payment
USSR has to industrialize to make itself a player in the world stage since it is surrounded by nations that want it to collapse, so it's either death by war or fast industrialization
Without industrialized transportation and production systems, famine is more likely to occur
So the USSR paid for the industrialization in the only material the western nations would accept @Aki

"Only the people who die as a result of policy i don't like are legitimate murders."

you're stating the opposite tbh

"Deaths resulting from my favorite policies are just woopsies, ignore"

you're saying the soviets deserved terrorism because you disagree with them

Murder by definition implies intent

you do not have murder without intent

```murder
/ˈməːdə/
noun
noun: murder; plural noun: murders

1.
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.```

Ok?

this was not premeditated

therefore,

not murder

and?

yes, its not intentional, and not murder. glad we agree

It was the Result of Soviet Collectivization is all I said

lol

Soviet State is responsible

it resulted from the decision to go forward with it, and was due to many factors that all joined up in the collectivisation era. but it was not intentional, its not like Soviet government *wanted* people to die, and once the thing was complete it never happened again. at most the famine can be called a tragic hickup

@Stern The farmers didn't deserve to be transported to Gulags run by a Foreign People and they didn't deserve to be starved while their produce was sent to the cities to Urbanization Projects, that's the Terrorism of the Soviet State

```Kulaks have no agency. Sabotage of crops and killing of livestock by the hundreds of thousands was done by NPCs who do not have moral agency by the virtue of not being sentient.```
- Storm, 2018

I said it was a Protest which was the result of Soviet Policy which anyway ended up killing millions while blaming small time farmers for it all

Collectivization resulted in the Famine, not Farmers Protesting.

if the farmers did not sabotage the crops, and did not kill literally hundreds of thousands of livestock, there's no telling how vastly lesser the famine could've been

this is unescapable

@Xinyue but nice memes bro

@AdorableStormtrooper no one deserves anything tbh

human rights are communist ideas

the Kulaks played a major part in this. Sure, the Soviet collectivisation set them in motion, yes, but the Soviets are not responsible to the frankly psychopathic actions of the kulaks in the era

@Xinyue if Soviets didn't plan Collectivization, which is an innans word for taking everything those Farmers had built.. there wouldn't be protests..