Can anyone please explain what ICU capacity dropping below %15 means in Newsoms mandatory lock-down orders effective tonight?

It means there are less than 15% of the ICU beds available for new cases/emergencies I believe.

That’s been the Rudy plan form the beginning. It was never to prove any fraud happened. Just make a lot of noise and allude to fraud. (Make up a sham case that he knows would not survive court scrutiny) just to give cover for legislators to then put on a big show and write letters. This is all just political theater @Corndog

One issue is there are no defined metrics to quantify the first thing.

What is Merit?

What is ...

...

I mean maybe, but.... if you are wrong that would mean what exactly? What if there is legitimacy to one or more of the cases? My position is that we don’t have enough information. Yours appears to be that we do have enough information to have faith in the election. I don’t see how at this point but I will listen to what proof you can provide.

@Corndog, you just advanced to level 4!

contingent election

Counting ballots is political theater

I appreciate your feedback and value your opinion... For a decentralized approach - with no coordination, I think it would be even harder to pull off. Now instead of a single mastermind or small coordinated group of masterminds, you are saying that independently and simultaneously a bunch of people decided to effect the election on a scale so as to flip anywhere from 200k votes up to 4m+ votes as President Trump claims (giving him the popular vote, too).

Few things in life are beyond reproach - especially when dealing with humans who live in a capitalist society. Winning is everything. Winners succeed. If you're not cheating, you don't want it bad enough. Technology changes rapidly, voting happens twice a year maybe. Once every 4 years for President. Ensuring 100% is not realistic, but 99.99% is pretty good. Paper Ballots with risk limiting audits and the occasional recount achieves that.

The will of the voters should not be overruled on a suspicion. That makes no sense to me - especially since the only reason that there is any suspicion at all is because Donald Trump said there would be fraud. I hear things like "all countries know mail-in voting is fraudulent" and "mail-in voting is prone to massive fraud", but have found no supporting material. It may be that someone might be able to vote for a relative that might not be inclined to vote, because they know their specifics and their signature, but to think that kind of thing happens on a scale that would matter is not born out by what we are seeing. If there was an effort to scour the voter rolls and try to vote for people that are unlikely to vote - they would still have to alter where the ballot was sent to a place where they could pick it up and avert suspicion. That would be a daunting task and the likelihood of catching the perpetrators is very high.

@Corndog then you show fraud occurred just like you would expect fraud in every election. No election in history has ever been perfect. However to the effect it can change the results. I think that’s a tall tale.

Are the lockdown orders for 24 - 7 ? What are the rules of the game?

@inwa It probably means less than 15% beds available.

That is somewhat dramatic in an ICU

Where is the bread ?

That makes much more sense but odd that is would be worded that way being that usually capacity is described as being at or projected to be at or if it reaches 85% and so on. Beggs the question as to if the language is intentionally misleading.

@inwa It is how we word it.

We need to know what capacity is left.

Just pointing out that a repeal of S230 without a plan on how to transition would be nightmarish. Social Media platforms will be forced to censor everyone to protect themselves or no one, which means everything is fair game - bullying, doxing, porn, revenge porn...

below 15 is dramatic, because if you have, for instance, a pile up, you might be faced with a full ICU, and ICU-pts typically cant wait.

@inwa

I don’t need to do that to have my position though, however, you have to show evidence to support your claim that all cases are without merit. I am simply stating we don’t know enough information and its not reasonable to say either option. Any state with these problems should wait to send electors until they have had deliberation about it.

@inwa we are in the wrong room. If you want more intensive care information, please move to general-chat

Trump said dems should add 24 scotus justices

I like the cut of his jib

Could they get around this by being a club? Charging a nominal membership fee?

Covers what he thinks the supreme Court should address in the Pennsylvania case and how important the Georgia runoff elections are for Senate control https://youtu.be/t09LedmB_90

He also said his followers are so bad at geography they dont know where Puerto Rico and washington DC are

be closed:
Indoor and Outdoor Playgrounds
Indoor Recreational Facilities
Hair Salons and Barbershops
Personal Care Services
Museums, Zoos, and Aquariums
Movie Theaters
Wineries
Bars, Breweries and Distilleries
Family Entertainment Centers
Cardrooms and Satellite Wagering
Limited Services
Live Audience Sports
Amusement Parks

This is not a lockdown

What does this have to do with capitalism? Democracy isn't necessary in any other system.

Great points, I wouldn’t call for overruling the will of the people, only that in light of everything, that will is not clear enough and the election was close enough to warrant caution moving forward. There is no harm in being pragmatic about it. The other thing, a decentralized system doesn’t need to have much if any coordination at all. It doesn’t need a mastermind. Book recommendation if you have time to help outline this concept is “the starfish and the spider”. Thanks!

Here in OC, we are down to 13.1%.

That's my understanding.

Checking in;

> @TaLoN132 The will of the voters should not be overruled on a suspicion.
100% agree with you here. I think the current plan being pushed for is if a certain number of legislatures do not select their electors by the safe harbor deadline, it will give time for the cases to push ahead while neither candidate reaches 270. GA may be an exception to this rule, and to be honest, I think they have enough evidence on the table to switch their votes. According to their state law, they have to send electors, should they opt to follow it. Even Guliani argued that they can sort of rule to do whatever they like in regards to selecting electors, though, so they may break state law and opt for a constitutional power.
In PA, the electors gave their power over to the governor to do this, again by state law. Scotus is in position to hear if the judiciary ruling broke their own constitution, I think there's a strong case that the safe harbor deadline isn't as relevant as the assembly of electors is on the 14th.
WI, NV, MI, and AZ I think may or may not opt to do this, whatever they publicly say or not. "Read my lips; no new taxes" may be the name of the game, and then the Trump team et. all gets a new date that the state legislatures then have the ability to send electors of their choosing.

Just closing something places. For 2 3 weeks while the cases go "down"

Exactly, no one that is being reasonable is making an argument to overrule the will of the people. Those cases will go no where.

I think it's fairly reasonable to say "Shit, we may not know the will of the people, but lets let things play out and find out." by not issuing electors by Dec. 8th.

Right? But hopefully it doesn’t come to that. There is plenty of time and there mechanics still at play to alleviate that burden. Looking at Dec 9th and January 3rd for key dates.

There are means to correct the issue by Jan. 3rd, but I don't think people will be too happy if they come to find out another month later "Oh shit there was fraud!" because I think people assume that the electors choose the next president and it's a done deal.

@Recalibar The longer it takes the worse the consequences. The problem is the two sides are doubling down with money they don’t have.