who owns germany? banks?

@Mawk Banks, USA, England.

French tryed one time to get more too, but US-English forces pushed them out

can you link me something related to what you're talking about? i'm clueless

regarding how the usa and england own germany

Google WW1 WW2

lol

Spiegel writes pro-USA statements as you lol

fuck you talking about? what pro-usa statements?

@Mawk http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/integrating-refugees-in-germany-an-update-a-1147053.html

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nato-chief-finds-a-new-ally-in-donald-trump-a-1146341.html

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/clinton-campaign-chair-john-podesta-on-president-trump-a-1146317.html

And it does suck USA dick continuously for many years

Koreans don't do it

Is Georg Lucas a capitalist?

north korea should me supported but its not really marxist-leninist, which is a fucking shame

its still a good socialist state, but with a cult of personality and revisionist policies

but i get if you dont support it

Though North Korea might have a favorable economy, the isolationist and totalitarian policies of its government are blatant infringements on the basic civil liberties of their people

what do you think would happen if they opened up

and the human rights reports are fucking hilarious from western media

i would choose nk then to live in sk

THERES NOTHING WRONG WITH CAPITALISM

NIGGERS DESERVE TO DIE FOR BEING DUNB AND POOR

makes sense B)

What makes you think North Korea isn't a country abusive to its people

HWat amakes u think it is

the better question is what makes you think it does

:)DD
:B

NIGGER
Nigeria

im not saying its perfect

Leseothie

LUTHIANAI
BANGALDESH

but its better than the latter

The reports we've had from the numerous people that have visited

you mean the ones that they get and pay to speak to make "reports"?

What makes you think that happens

whats the new story about it, that people are cannibalized

last time i checked they were using methheads to build skyscrapers

Can't we just introduce Mesopotamian Socailism?

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they tell you this shit and whenever its nk everyone just immediately accepts it

isnt that agarian socialism lol

@LBJ (D-TX)/rumsod - wipes are forbidden in here.

There are accounts by people born there that have escaped, I doubt they too were paid to lie

yeah why would they lie if they defected right

So every single person to ever report on the country has lied? That sounds like /pol/ tier jew paranoia

how much research have you done on the nk

besides netflix docs

because those were filmed outside nk

There are articles detailing the horrors people have gone through

By people that lived there

yeah from websites that are known for propaganda machines

washington post

ny times

you know why?

Not from those

because publishers make a shit ton of money when its nk

Well where have you learned about Nk

vlogs and non news sources

the people who actually live there

Isn't vlogging illegal in north korea

lol no

and they celebrate foreign movies

Well which vlog exactly is it

i can't link it rn im in the car going to my grandmas

but they went to the pyongyang water park

so you can try looking up that

North Korea is more sovereign than Germony

@★ Commissar Regi ★ I don't see NK shilling for Hillary, do you?

Why would they

@★ Commissar Regi ★ why would Germans do

To be a good boy

Merkel's policies coincide with hillary's

@💵 Regi Zteel 💵#2709 All other German leaders policies coincide with USA financial interest for 20 years already

In a strange way Germoney is the one getting cucked

And USA is doing fine

What an interesting partnership of a cuck nation with their owner

The argument of neolibs isn't democratizing countries, more like stealing resources

Communists could agree that they'd need to push capitalism first before socialism to develop the country, from a transition from feudalism to capitalism for example

(Mao)

but from capitalism to socialism always

otherwise is revisionist (Deng Xiaoping)

there's a letter from a trot organization that says Marx didn't have a dogmatic view of the stages; but some people talk about stages

https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/newspape/ni/vol01/no04/marx.htm

@Blebleh I think you can do both.

Socialism from the beginning or capitalism at first.

It wouldn't be a central planned economy in real time from the beginning, since it needs cybernetics

@Blebleh it can be socialist from the beginning with full nationalization and turmoil.

Some think it is a faster and better way.

What is that? @Blebleh

It's a chart from an old page, a competition between authors who took an inspiration from marxism

It's modified showing Hoxha as the winner

This was the original one

Also, who asked before... George Lucas or Gyorgy Lukacs? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lucas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gy%C3%B6rgy_Luk%C3%A1cs

I respect a lot Hoxha for being the last standing true fighter. But I disagree with him.

Why?

Because of some difficulties in theory. Imperialism is possible only under capitalism and USSR was socialist, more socialist than anybody else.

Khruschev was a huge traitor to the class, but it doesn't make him imperialist.

It led to the restoration of capitalism in the USSR

while keeping the image, it's social imperialism

@Blebleh There were no imperialists in power.

Only idiots.

Revisionists who pushed capitalism

@Blebleh Yes.

Without knowledge of what they were doing.

Brezhnev passed whole WW2 to defend socialism and communism.

But he was not the best in theory

That doesn't make him imperialist.

Most people on the left are the same.

They have hard time to study. It doesn't make one imperialist.

who disarmed the USSR?

and what about the perestroika of Gorbachev?

@Blebleh What about them?

at that point the enemy was inside already

The enemy was always inside.

Our enemy is our stupidity.

revisionism after stalin

denounced even by mao

@Blebleh You think as if revisionism is surely an intentional thing.

khruschev making fake the cult of personality, disarming the people, peaceful coexistence

and Gorbachov restorating capitalism with the perestroika

restoration of capitalism began a lot earlier than gorbachev

intentional or not it is

@Blebleh how it makes Brezhnev imperialist?

gorvachevs perestroika was just a final phase

Unintentionally imperialist?

with the new policies

they made the monopolist capitalism arise

depending on a bourgeois oligarchy

@Blebleh Capitalists make communism arise with their policies. Are they communist?

now just a national bourgeoisie more like China

Capitalists don't make communism arise, they make their own gravediggers, the proletariat

going a step backward when the planned economy is already built is treason

@Blebleh I've heard capitalism brings us to socialism.

But people need class consciousness first

and political organization

@Blebleh Treason by a man who gave his life for communism countless times?

@Blebleh I'm speaking of the objective side.

that doesn't matter; it lead to the restoration

no matter how he felt before

@Blebleh I first ask you to give your life for communism, before saying it doesn't matter

Its not the easy thing to do

Most critics never will do it

It's easy to criticize from your basement.

it isn't related to how he wasn't revisionist

a socdem can have a good heart

@Blebleh I stated 3 times already that he was.

yes, and why are you telling me that it's easy to criticize?

@Blebleh Because you claim he is imperialist.

I agree on revisionism.

that revisionism pulled imperialism

Everything pulls everything

no, if the party kept the socialist line

they wouldn't have been imperialist

@Blebleh The Party was dead after Stalin.

But it doesn't make a socialist country imperialist

Imperialism, the highest stage of capitalism

the policies from the party pulled monopolist capitalism

it doesn't matter if they had good heart... imperialism depends on the economy

@Blebleh Imperialism is subjective on top of economical basis. Economy and subjective force maybe different at the same time.

Hoxha also denounced the cubans

and also the maoists after a period of time

Communist subjectively can't be imperialist

Even some revisionists, like Brezhnev

I didn't understand the penultimate phrase

Imperialism is not purely economical

It requires people to force it upon others

If there is no such people than it is not imperialism.

It is forced with the state

@Blebleh State didn't have an imperialist agenda.

DEATH TO THE LEFT

imperialism isn't a program alone as let's invade countries

@Blebleh it is also not the economy alone.

it emerges from the conditions of capitalism, it requires a monopolist capitalism which was restored with Khruschev, and therefore he had to obey that kind of economy

no matter how much he tried to be good

like reforming capitalism in social democracy, it's limited

@Blebleh I disagree on this. USSR has been most socialist country in the world.

Even after Stalin.

I could agree

but most socialism now is welfare state

still capitalism

even some people criticize stalin as capitalist

because he couldn't remove the capitalist relations of production (for this we would need world socialism)

but if there's no bourgeoisie... it seems leftcom to me

So my point is Idiots are not necessarily imperialist.

A country being imperialist or not doesn't depend on idiocy or intentions

You could say that the party restored capitalism with good heart

and call them idiots

but still imperialism

Subjectivity is important. There is no subjectively imperialist = there is no imperialism.

China and Russia today can defend Syria

but it's still an imperialist bloc, just one with interests against the national bourgeoisie of the US and Europe

@Blebleh Russia and China are imperialist.

yes, so I say, every try to help other nations is for the national bourgeoisie not for socialism

it obeys the logic of capital not proletarian internationalism

@Blebleh There was no national bourgeoisie in power in USSR under Brezhnev.

Only revisionist scum

If you would trade openly for profit you would go to prison.

Even if you sell a cigarette

What kind of class of bourgeoisie in power is that?

It's almost like it's just a bunch of economic D&C

@Ornament Check this https://espressostalinist.com/2013/04/21/anasintaxi-on-the-restoration-of-capitalism-in-the-soviet-union-part-1-the-working-class-in-the-khrushchev-brezhnev-period-was-no-longer-the-owner-of-the-means-of-production/

That can't possibly be, can it? I are all the facets of socialism just veils over a death cult?

Stalin denounced the cult of personality

And yet...

if something it was permitted

we have to know the melting point of the policies and they have heads

Aaah. So it is. And human suffering is the fuel for this crucible, yes?

@Blebleh I do not agree with this article.

human suffering isn't any fuel

in the USSR the life expectancy skyrocketed and the GDP growed, as well as the limitation of the labours of work

but I disagree with a tenet of leninism

That's the rumblings of an underground capitalist oligarchy booting up.

Human suffering as fuel for the crucible of socialism is a long used metaphor.

I think banning factions breeds revisionism because it removes the accountability and the culture of revision with the ones who are in charge

It comes from outside the dialectic, however, call it an "outside" joke.

Limiting the scope of your discussion to a few fantasy books also removes a lot of accountability

Trotskyists say that it was temporal

Lmfao

and pro-Stalin advocates say it wasn't

Who lived longer?

That was the correct socialist

I doubt that even in a temporal ban you could restore it again as you wanted

but what they discuss more is the thing of permanent revolution

and pro-Stalin people think that in this case, it isn't leninist and that it would kill the revolution

and then we have council communists

and bordigists

All that shut you just said is basically the cancer that ends each revolution before it may reach its second stable point. P

Or the other complimentary cancer; the fallacious notion that writhing every socialist revolution lies the pupae of a functional state.

*bordiga gets offended* 😛

Not once has this actually been the case. As we can see within every socialist revolution lies an impossible to sustain ideological terratoma

I get that you're making a certain type of joke, but no.

The mere fact that I'm speaking to a leftist means I've a very high tolerance for disgust.

The party has a clear theoretical line

an in an anarchist case we could use a platform and unions

blanquism isn't leninism

(coups)

but today, we have bourgeois economy in the university, the mainstream economy

neoclassical-keynesian and even austrian

in socialism this is easier once we can educate the people

the media isn't owned privately for profit as now

Woah. Woah. Yes it is.

it doesn't mean it has to be managed by the party, it could be self-managed by different workers

In socialism

OH the other control system!

Yeah that's a thing, man that's a fun system to fuck with.

Fellow travelers are cheap and disposable, comrade