hey comrades

@Santa Claauz
I've noticed that there has been in fact a change. It used to be that the Left debated over the economic and moral efficacy of exclusive property claims. Now it's been hijacked by entitled edgy wannabe narcissists who care about nothing more than their ego and self-gratification.

@not_matt Welcome to our community!

thx =- )

@Santa Claauz any leftist who doesn't do economics is a fake fuck

idpol focus isn't leftism

its a social power play.

@not_matt
Preach!

@.... I think we all agree about that end.

But I'm curious what people here think about minority rights movements.

I've noticed there's a growing NazBol movement going on here which makes me curious as to the line between nationalism and "idpol"

(the flip side to that is any leftist who isn't inter sectional in opposing oppression is also wrong)

nationalism is right idpol

@not_matt that's the exact balance I'm trying to get at ^^^

Nazbol isn't growing it's a joke.

Because "NazBol Gang" sounds hilarious. Even just phonetically.

Like, the Sharks, the Jets, the NazBol Gang... WATCH OUT!

well here's my take. liberation is primarily an economic, material endeavor. if people are stolen from by capitalists, they are oppressed- full stop. if they are also encumbered by racial, gender, or sexuality bias, they are oppressed in an additional manner. but to liberate the blacks, gays, women, trans, etc, you FIRST have to free them from capitalist exploitation, because that includes ALL of them, not just one individual group.

@Santa Claauz
Well this is a very diverse group. Not sure if you were told this yet, but I'm an anarcho-capitalist actually, so my approach, means, and end might differ altogether.

But with that being said, to the extent of my knowledge I am convinced that the whole minority rights movement is completely bogus in this age and even deliberately skewed against white people. More specifically, white males. This is coming from a Filipino American citizen, and I haven't seen any level of favoritism on the basis of race anywhere in the US...with the exception of blacks and Hispanics.

i'd disagree with it being "deliberately" skewed

@not_matt
Well you got affirmative action.

but porky uses that racial anger and pits working class against working class

i mean, affirmative action wouldn't be necessary if schools were funded equally instead of by property taxes.

@not_matt
I'm probably going to make a thread about this but basically I've noticed that my own community (very small minority) focuses a lot on "educating people about our culture" which in effect has been a bunch of bitching to white people about the discrimination we face.

In my view there is a difference between this (idpol) and still taking active measures against discrimination. @not_matt

@not_matt DUDE EXACTLY. THIS IS WHAT EVERYONE MISSES ON AFFIRMATIVE ACTION

thats an example of porky pointing racial anger in a direction where it serves as economic oppression

WE NEED AFF ACTION vs AFF ACTION IS REVERSE RACIST instead of hey lets educate everyone equally instead of based on where they grow up

@Santa Claauz
Well, this _is_ where my ethics diverge altogether, since I advocate exclusive claims.

when ur school is worse based on growing up in a poor area, you get cyclical poverty 🆒

@Santa Claauz "Or is any focus on a group besides the working class just a form of idpol" This. At best it focuses on a subset of class opression, which might be useful, but at risk of focussing on the effects not the cause, which can also be counterproductive.

@not_matt
Ah, I just had a discussion with my commie friend a while back on the Poverty Cycle.

@not_matt but basically the point I'm trying to make us that I believe there is a difference between what my community does (bitching about discrimination to white people and blabbing on about how tough we have it) and what I believe we should do (taking active measures to build our OWN community in order to actually fight discrimination.

@Deleted User

What's your take on this? Isn't there a difference? Or are both idpol

well i agree

Ah, but racism can be philosophical. Interpersonal racism definitely seems to correspond with poverty and porky propaganda, but there's also simply having a racist belief system.

bitching about discrimination is defeatist in a way

highlighting oppression, if the oppression in question concerns it in all forms, can't be a bad thing.... but community building is better

actively fighting >>>> bitching as well no matter what

^^^ I feel like that's all we do. I know it's important to highlight oppression especially when so many of us have been victims of hate crimes. But I just don't feel like it's productive to just complain about it.

@not_matt however there is an argument that even that community building and active fighting against discrimination is a form of idpol and we should forget about it and focus on class. What do you think?

i disagree with "anything other than class is idpol"

we fight against oppression. that's the whole thing imo

idpol is bad as a distraction. its bad if its obfuscating class. but we also have to recognize that blacks were the ones who were the economic class of slaves. they are currently the ones disproportionately thrown into private prisons to do fucking slave labor

^^^ really good way of putting it

thx comrade

However a lot of people here do say that anything other than class is idpol and I'm curious about what they think

Those people are shits.

And dumb.

Lol

(crowd cheers loudly)

facts

those people ignore oppression. people who only idpol or engage in essentialist bullshit ignore oppression. fuck em

@Santa Claauz If you wanted to take idpol to the extreme, every individual is a separate identity. The oppression they experience is specific to them. But this oppression is measurable, scientifically, objectively, not subjectively. The focus of idpol on the subjective experience is where it fails. To temptation to classify individuals together is a subjective trick. In reality everything is material, specifically, according to the proximity to the means of production, which is why only this analysis matters. Idpol is at best spinning tires while it does not address this.

So what would you say to the point that @not_matt brought up about blacks being the main victims of for profit prisons and such

Focussing on 'blackness' is only useful in statistical analysis. Action based on this subset is arbitrarily.

can you rephrase that, im not quite sure i get you

I think this is probably true. But I think I'd agree with Zielwhatsit if he's saying black people should be included and assisted along class lines rather than pitied along race ones.

if you are saying that, zielgerat, i'd agree. we have more in common than we don't regardless

I agree as well. But I think it's important to at least recognize that it's no coincidence that the main victims of private prisons are Black

Yes.

Realizing that reality allows us to examine and learn from the socioeconomic conditions that led to such a thing.

As an arbitrary group, yes. But why is Blackness so special? Why not birth date etc.?

Because they've been singled out and alienated as a group to the benefit of porkies.

Ignoring that reality leaves us in the same position as the Rightwingers (with our fingers in our ears)

Speaking of birthdate, though - ageism is a legit issue that's underaddressed in my opinion. But it's getting deeper down the rabbithole, too.

Can you imagine an analysis on the most oppressed birthday? You could also say they are 'singled our and alienated'.

@Deleted User do you believe people born in October are disproportionately imprisoned?

Is there any historical or social precedent for that, Ziel?

They're not. But blacks are. That's the difference.

Plugging our ears to this fact leaves us as blind and deaf as the Rightwingers

@John Doe Intention is not a predictor of result.

What if both are present?

Welcome to /leftypol/ a low-moderation channel. Feel yourself free here.

Like if I want to go and rob somebody and then I do it, isn't there a connection?

Sup niggas

Ey Bat'ko.

@Santa Claauz I am not 'plugging my ears'. I am accepted it as true. But I am saying there is nothing special about this subgroup. Out there, somewhere in the world, is a person or group arbitarily sleceted, that is more oppressed than any other. With enough data you could find it. But then what?

Stop it, fight poverty, spread lit.

Have you every played wack-a-mole?

@Bat'ko welcome, brother!

It's not easy, from what I understand.

The difference is that blacks exist as an actual community with an actual history not an arbitrarily selected coincidence.

@Santa Claauz Only subjectively.

But the existence of the interactions isn't subjective.

Agreed @John Doe

In other news has anyone read The Green Book or is in anyway familiar with the philosophy of Gaddafi's Libya (the Jamahiriya)

I can't believe it but I'm actually beginning to align with his ideas (even though I thought I was so unique lol).

@John Doe Playing wack-a-mole, you are predetermined to lose. You need a wider strategy than hitting one mole at a time. Or even several. The whole is greater than the sum of parts.

@Santa Claauz libya was the poorest country when gaddafi took over, and africa's richest country when he left....

"left" lmao

@John Doe And the framing of these interaction is arbitrary.

@Santa Claauz Kaddafi theory is syndicalism, muslim religion and social-democracy. Kaddafi surely been a great comrade and a leader of the left. But look at the results of his theory! He got crushed by Imperialism in the end.

@not_matt I know right! But I'm just so shocked to find a political system that basically fits exactly with me!

@Firefly yes but so do all. He lasted longer than most.

Even down to his views on women and the family it feels like I could've written the green book

@Santa Claauz Mao, Stalin and Lenin did a much better job. I can say Kaddafi did an exceptional job for African continent.

And he died trying to create an independent future for Africa. A true hero.

JAMAHIRIYA FLAIR WHEN

@Santa Claauz I agreeб https://youtu.be/tWQSR2fGK8U

defending mao and stalin?

tankies are ahistorical

we can learn from their clear and obvious mistakes

also lenin should've read marx

*hot takes incoming*

Is Colonel Gaddafi considered a tankie? He was somewhat authoritarian but not really a Marx-Leninist.

@not_matt Is Fidel Considered a tankei, Che?

sounds pretty *reactionary*