because there is no real quasality here and I am not talking about the gold policies

@Xinyue when you see what happened after you killed all the productive small time Farmers that you call kulaks and Bourgeoisie as dehumanization tactics... the result wasn't things getting better...

you just cannot get over your ideology even if the outcome is measurably bad.

@Aki there is a causality

Small Time Farmers, you're not talking about Big 6 Banks or Farma, had too much power? @Xinyue wot

Ok so lets go threw it point by point.

you pay for goods in grain because foreign powers won't accept gold

and these goods are industrial goods that are used to further develop industrialized transports systems that streamline transportation and production

I mean it has become pretty widely known at this point, the Golden Blockade imposed upon the Soviets and whatnot

wow that is autistic...

give me stats

@Stern are you going to make an argument?

Prove to me that there would be a famine elsewhere if there wasn't a famine on Ukraine.

and prove to me that this cause of action couldn't have been avoided with different set of polices

that is a hella goalpost

finally

it's simple causality

And of course once the Soviet industry had 1) developed and 2) recovered from the second world war towards the late 1940s, nothing like this happened ever again, at any part of the USSR. It very clearly was a glitch in the system as intended due to the piss-poor conditions. You can quite clearly infer that it was underdevelopment, economic isolation and of course the hickups that accumulated due to the push to industrialisation that caused this. But nothing suggests that this was intentional on the part of the Soviets.

as you said

So you have no data no statistics no nothing?

do I have statistics based on alternate history?

I'm sorry Aki, but we have let people starve because that's us making a better world by implementing Socialism.

I don't live in data. I don't have every page and every file open 24/7. I am not a bot, I do not at will immerse myself in the virtual space.

Well you are making those claims so you have to have something to back it up

Everyone who died was a Casualty for a Great Cause 😃😄

but it doesn't seem like you do

But we do know that there was only one holodomor; there was no successor

I'm going to lay it out step by step again ffs

and from this, things can be inferred

ok go on

oh yes, there were never any food shortages in Soviet Union after Famines

It can be inferred that it was a once-at-a-time incident, in the early phase of the country's development, when it was underdeveloped and that it was never repeated that it was not intentional

It was the direct result of Soviet Policy.

not intentional though, most likely not

hence not murdering of millions

If you kill millions of people through written policy that transports all their food to the cities and many of them to Gulags, it isn't murder?

those 600K-700K people who were shot *were* intentional killings, so I suggest that the indictments on Soviet government focus on these tragedies

not the famines that seem to be due to other reasons than intent

golden blockade: ussr has to pay for industrialization in grain and western nations no longer accept gold as payment
USSR has to industrialize to make itself a player in the world stage since it is surrounded by nations that want it to collapse, so it's either death by war or fast industrialization
Without industrialized transportation and production systems, famine is more likely to occur
So the USSR paid for the industrialization in the only material the western nations would accept @Aki

"Only the people who die as a result of policy i don't like are legitimate murders."

you're stating the opposite tbh

"Deaths resulting from my favorite policies are just woopsies, ignore"