Message from @AdorableStormtrooper
Discord ID: 523925831769391106
that the policies were meant to cause famine
it was influenced yes, directly even, in that a) the collectivisation did probably not go without problems even outside the kulaks and b) the kulaks did what they did because of the Soviet policy @Aki
```even mainstream historians, or sovietologists of the most recent generation, accept this```
argument from authority and a damning indictment of this narrative at the same time
rather than the famine being a product of policy
Well if you export the grains from the regions that are stariving it preety much is intentional... there is a simple cuasality here.
well I thought I'd appeal to historians since Soviet hard data wasn't good enough @AdorableStormtrooper
@Xinyue so maybe shouldn't have collectivized if the result was protests, and maybe shouldn't have collectivized in retrospect seeing that the production did not match up to the pre collectivization times just before it?
the export of grain was necessary to fund the further industrialization of the USSR
And it leads to famine.
It is a simple logic here.
Come on.
it would have lead to worse famine in more places otherwise
```the export of grain was necessary to fund the further industrialization of the USSR```
but muh ideology ðŸ˜
ah yes, don't collectivise, don't make things better for everyone, because a bunch of kulaks hold the rest of the population at gunpoint.
you know, the logical response is that "fuck these people they have way too much power over the country and its well-being"
that's literally a fact
ok prove it
the ussr was paying for industrial machinery from the west in grain because no one was accepting soviet gold
I have provided you with quotes and pointed out a simple causality.
Can you do the same?
because there is no real quasality here and I am not talking about the gold policies
@Xinyue when you see what happened after you killed all the productive small time Farmers that you call kulaks and Bourgeoisie as dehumanization tactics... the result wasn't things getting better...
you just cannot get over your ideology even if the outcome is measurably bad.
Small Time Farmers, you're not talking about Big 6 Banks or Farma, had too much power? @Xinyue wot
Ok so lets go threw it point by point.
you pay for goods in grain because foreign powers won't accept gold
and these goods are industrial goods that are used to further develop industrialized transports systems that streamline transportation and production
I mean it has become pretty widely known at this point, the Golden Blockade imposed upon the Soviets and whatnot
wow that is autistic...
give me stats
@Stern are you going to make an argument?
Prove to me that there would be a famine elsewhere if there wasn't a famine on Ukraine.
and prove to me that this cause of action couldn't have been avoided with different set of polices
that is a hella goalpost
finally
it's simple causality
And of course once the Soviet industry had 1) developed and 2) recovered from the second world war towards the late 1940s, nothing like this happened ever again, at any part of the USSR. It very clearly was a glitch in the system as intended due to the piss-poor conditions. You can quite clearly infer that it was underdevelopment, economic isolation and of course the hickups that accumulated due to the push to industrialisation that caused this. But nothing suggests that this was intentional on the part of the Soviets.
as you said
So you have no data no statistics no nothing?
do I have statistics based on alternate history?
I'm sorry Aki, but we have let people starve because that's us making a better world by implementing Socialism.
I don't live in data. I don't have every page and every file open 24/7. I am not a bot, I do not at will immerse myself in the virtual space.