Welp so @Xinyue what do you think about the level of honesty presented by @Stern

just curious

@Xinyue economic data that they burnt stock, why? in protest of policies that you support but that doesn't matter

How the hell does me saying that the 600K-700K people killed under USSR is a moral failure, *translate into I use Soviet propaganda?*

them protesting isn't what caused the famine mate, the new collectivized farms weren't as productive

plus whatever was grown was sent to the cities

are you saying that burning grain and killing livestock during a famine is justified just because you dont like the policy @AdorableStormtrooper

If anything that's me delivering an indictment on USSR based on the data we have

you will never address any of these points

just keep saying no argument

You have provided no argument this is true

Ehhhh that is why you do not talk with commies....

just "but why did they kill livestock ehehehehe? it was because muh Sobiets wasn't it"

I preety much proved every point I wanted to make.

you will keep saying that no matter how many times i present an argument 😄

@Aki what points specifically

asking for clarification

The kulaks killed livestock and sabotaged crops, they were instrumental in causing the famine

even mainstream historians, or sovietologists of the most recent generation, accept this

what historians

That the famine in Ukraine was inflenced by economic policies of Stalin.

I agree @Aki

you don't even call them farmers, you call them kulaks to dehumanize them in your mind, that's what the propaganda you're repeating was intended to do

but the debate was over whether or not it was intentional

that the policies were meant to cause famine

it was influenced yes, directly even, in that a) the collectivisation did probably not go without problems even outside the kulaks and b) the kulaks did what they did because of the Soviet policy @Aki

```even mainstream historians, or sovietologists of the most recent generation, accept this```

argument from authority and a damning indictment of this narrative at the same time

rather than the famine being a product of policy

Well if you export the grains from the regions that are stariving it preety much is intentional... there is a simple cuasality here.

well I thought I'd appeal to historians since Soviet hard data wasn't good enough @AdorableStormtrooper

@Xinyue so maybe shouldn't have collectivized if the result was protests, and maybe shouldn't have collectivized in retrospect seeing that the production did not match up to the pre collectivization times just before it?

the export of grain was necessary to fund the further industrialization of the USSR

And it leads to famine.

It is a simple logic here.

Come on.

it would have lead to worse famine in more places otherwise

```the export of grain was necessary to fund the further industrialization of the USSR```

but muh ideology 😭

ah yes, don't collectivise, don't make things better for everyone, because a bunch of kulaks hold the rest of the population at gunpoint.

you know, the logical response is that "fuck these people they have way too much power over the country and its well-being"

that's literally a fact

ok prove it

the ussr was paying for industrial machinery from the west in grain because no one was accepting soviet gold