#debate (Discord ID: 463068752725016579) in Subverse, page 54

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2018-10-02 01:24:06 UTC

Probably motivated by military service

2018-10-02 01:25:36 UTC

It's when I learned that the term "Bill of Rights" is wildly inaccurate

2018-10-02 01:26:16 UTC

My USG teacher said "It is a bill of negative rights of government" which is wildly more restrictive than a bill which specified rights could possibly be

2018-10-02 01:26:33 UTC

Restrictive of government that is

2018-10-02 01:26:47 UTC

Which is supposed to be upheld by the people

2018-10-02 01:26:54 UTC

Ideally yes

2018-10-02 01:27:05 UTC

But people have it backwards now and are waiting for the government to give them their rights back

2018-10-02 01:27:43 UTC

Well I'd argue it's a problem that unfortunately started with the civil Rights act of '64

2018-10-02 01:29:10 UTC

Cuz if you want to get super technical about it, the bill of rights doesn't actually apply to individuals

2018-10-02 01:29:16 UTC

It applies to states.

2018-10-02 01:29:23 UTC

Which then applies to individuals

2018-10-02 01:29:44 UTC

More accurately I've seen it described as a deal between the fed and states

2018-10-02 01:30:21 UTC

I'm still working through the federalist papers. Something I wish I'd done a long time ago

2018-10-02 01:31:04 UTC

I actually bought a nice bound hard copy version of the Federalist papers a few month ago and have yet to start reading it.

2018-10-02 01:32:56 UTC

Also rightly or wrongly. I believe the declaration of independence is the philosophical founding document of the country and the Constitution is the nut and bolts of how gov is supposed to work.

2018-10-02 01:35:14 UTC

As a side note, I heard a fun argument that I liked from Larry Elder. It was: If the government needed an amendment to ban alcohol, why don't they need an amendment for other drugs? He might not be the origin of that idea, but that's who I heard it from.

2018-10-02 01:53:02 UTC

The declaration of Independence is, imo, at best a ideological ideal but only insofar as the most famous of the sentences. The rest really is just a listing of grievances

2018-10-02 01:53:23 UTC

Inspiring to be sure, but relatively simple in it's inspiration

2018-10-02 01:54:38 UTC

@grant I believe this was the argument back before alcohol. I want to say with opium back when it was smoked in pipes at opium dens/bars/whatever.

2018-10-02 01:55:26 UTC

I'd imagine though Larry Elder simply understands that there isn't any kind of explicit permission for government to make those laws. Those fall under the concept of unenumerated rights

2018-10-02 01:56:07 UTC

One day Tim Will become a constitutional constructionist. I'm willing to bet on it

2018-10-02 01:56:13 UTC

Then he'll be a libertarian

2018-10-02 01:56:20 UTC

Before you even know it

2018-10-02 01:59:49 UTC

Just wait. One day I believe he will see the superiority of constitutional constructionism. (Literalism)

2018-10-02 07:42:00 UTC

My issue with @Timcast report on the Kavenah stuff is Tim comes out as a sexist.
"I believe her more than him" so you beleive her based on the fact she is a woman Tim, thats textbook sexism. you should wieght them equally if you are not sexist.

2018-10-02 07:42:34 UTC

I get he is trying to be compassionate however its actual sexism.

2018-10-02 11:38:47 UTC

Another prediction. (Though it's already happening). The Democrats start looking for specific statements to try and push the narrative that there is a conspiracy and Kavanaugh is lying. Specifically, they'll look to accuse him of perjury which serves the dual purpose of making him look bad and sets up for later impeachment or criminal proceedings if he were to be nominated.

The specific statements will be borderline. Stuff like dodges or guilt by association issues.

They're ruthless.

2018-10-02 11:44:33 UTC

I still think this played terribly for the Democrats with anyone right of Bernie Sanders

2018-10-02 12:38:45 UTC

They are already doing that Pratel

2018-10-02 12:38:52 UTC

They are trying to paint him as "angry"

2018-10-02 12:39:11 UTC

The entire thing was to get him to testify so that they can pick it apart.

2018-10-02 12:58:46 UTC

Seems he lied about his connections to Yale.

2018-10-02 13:10:35 UTC

@Jes I think he said that because statisically one is more likely to accuse someone of something they did actually do

2018-10-02 13:11:25 UTC

@Tal,Karpov,AlekhineAllCoolGuys well I'd love to hear it from the horses mouth. it comes accross as sexism.

2018-10-02 13:11:36 UTC

I believe because of sex

2018-10-02 13:11:44 UTC

is sexism

2018-10-02 13:11:58 UTC

I don't think he said that though

2018-10-02 13:12:08 UTC

but its just one of the many things I'd love to discuss with @Timcast

2018-10-02 13:12:20 UTC

maybe you can get such an idea from what he said

2018-10-02 13:12:20 UTC

he gave no reason for his belief at any point

2018-10-02 13:12:26 UTC

but he never directly said that

2018-10-02 13:12:55 UTC

no he didnt you are right. he gave no reason at all as to why he beleives her but he did say he beleives her more than him

2018-10-02 13:13:26 UTC

the only logical reason I can conclude (and please correct me) is he is being sexist

2018-10-02 13:13:44 UTC

its positive discrimination which is still discrimination

2018-10-02 13:14:14 UTC

either women have the same rights and responsibilities as men or they dont

2018-10-02 13:14:23 UTC

It might also simply be due to it being a sexual crime; which is very different than other crimes

2018-10-02 13:14:27 UTC

if they do you can just believe one or the other

2018-10-02 13:14:43 UTC

oh yeah, if he is guilty, burn him at the stake

2018-10-02 13:14:56 UTC

if she made it up she should do prison time

2018-10-02 13:15:17 UTC

and yes, thats me judging the crime of abuse above lying

2018-10-02 13:15:36 UTC

I do however disagree with openly saying that one believes one over the other even if one inheritly feels one is more likely to be guilty; because that is not very objective

2018-10-02 13:16:01 UTC

all men positivly discriminate in favour of women

2018-10-02 13:16:09 UTC

Not all

2018-10-02 13:16:11 UTC

at some point or another

2018-10-02 13:16:15 UTC

That's a bit much

2018-10-02 13:16:24 UTC

not malitiously

2018-10-02 13:16:42 UTC

Misogny is seen as a big thing in msm which is false but it does exist in some places

2018-10-02 13:16:43 UTC

look at prison sentancing men vs women for the same crime

2018-10-02 13:16:53 UTC

the majority

2018-10-02 13:16:54 UTC

misandry is far more prevelent

2018-10-02 13:17:05 UTC

yes that can be true

2018-10-02 13:17:13 UTC

but not all

2018-10-02 13:17:55 UTC

I dont mind a little bit of positive in favour of women - biologically they are more important to the species but "believe all women" is beyond the pale

2018-10-02 13:18:51 UTC

Yes that is a problem but there is no proof that Tim believes that; it's just a logical conclusion

2018-10-02 13:19:53 UTC


2018-10-02 13:20:07 UTC

Though sex crimes should not be portrayed as a gender issue imo.

2018-10-02 13:20:23 UTC

appologies if it seems I'm putting words into his mouth, all my comments are of course my opinion

2018-10-02 13:21:15 UTC

I was hoping he'd respond

2018-10-02 13:21:56 UTC

The accuser should have some leeway in evidence not because they are female or gay or something but due to how hard evidence is to find. Even then; there should be some evidence or multiple witnesses with the exception of very rare cases.

2018-10-02 13:22:11 UTC

And the witnesses must be credible

2018-10-02 13:22:17 UTC

if they report it you know, withing 30 years of the accusation

2018-10-02 13:22:18 UTC


2018-10-02 13:22:30 UTC


2018-10-02 13:24:17 UTC

I fixed my msg

2018-10-02 13:24:55 UTC

I fall back on "better 10 guilty go free than 1 innocent is imprisoned"

2018-10-02 13:25:16 UTC

I remember when the left used to stand for this too

2018-10-02 13:25:43 UTC

did you hear 2 men have come forward claiming it was them not Kavenagh?

2018-10-02 13:26:00 UTC


2018-10-02 13:26:14 UTC

thats Sargon

2018-10-02 13:26:23 UTC

just watching it

2018-10-02 13:26:33 UTC

yeah I watch some of his stuff

2018-10-02 13:26:53 UTC

its in USA today

2018-10-02 13:26:57 UTC

I like Sargon but I feel recently he has been getting more partisan

2018-10-02 13:27:07 UTC

he is covering it in the first couple of minutes of that vid

2018-10-02 13:27:12 UTC

That's probably why he decided to take a break

2018-10-02 13:27:20 UTC

nah the left is just getting more extreme

2018-10-02 13:27:32 UTC

No I don't mean that

2018-10-02 13:28:02 UTC

he is certainly getting more political but he is still a centre left in his views

2018-10-02 13:28:37 UTC

I mean before he used to say some things to clarify his stance and say sympathetic things to some people in groups who were suffering as a result of radical left beliefs

2018-10-02 13:28:47 UTC


2018-10-02 13:28:48 UTC

but now he doesn't really do that

2018-10-02 13:29:07 UTC

probably tied of using caveats every time he speaks lol

2018-10-02 13:29:23 UTC

actually you just made me realise something

2018-10-02 13:29:38 UTC

Tim is probably just covering his own arse to avoid backlash

2018-10-02 13:30:00 UTC

thats more likely than he being sexist

2018-10-02 13:30:05 UTC

so thanks πŸ˜ƒ

2018-10-02 13:30:07 UTC


2018-10-02 13:30:13 UTC

do u mean

2018-10-02 13:30:21 UTC

backlash from who?

2018-10-02 13:30:34 UTC

from the left

2018-10-02 13:30:46 UTC

if he didnt say he believed her he'd be in the crosshairs

2018-10-02 13:31:02 UTC

I had assumed that's what you meant

2018-10-02 13:31:22 UTC

thats more logical a conclusion than actual positive discrimination.

2018-10-02 13:32:00 UTC

legit, thanks for engaging on this. you made me think it through in a different way

2018-10-02 13:32:10 UTC


2018-10-02 13:32:54 UTC

but yeah I agree on sargon being more full on these days and a bit less compassionate

2018-10-02 13:34:36 UTC

yeah I kinda miss that compassion; it was probably very useful; I cam imagine it changed the opinions of a lot of main stream left-leaning people

2018-10-02 13:35:09 UTC


2018-10-02 13:35:29 UTC

angry sargon is funny but yes, it doesnt convince new people

2018-10-02 13:36:09 UTC

and he used to convert a lot of people. I'm sure his current path isnt doing that nearly as much

2018-10-02 13:37:19 UTC

Yes I agree; I was never part of the main stream left. Though there were some lies they preached that I fell prey to before I started watching political commentary from all sorts of sides

2018-10-02 13:38:44 UTC

this is why I watch Tim. he is as far left as I can watch without reeeeing

2018-10-02 13:39:02 UTC

because he does actual research and doesnt lie

2018-10-02 13:39:04 UTC

I watch some rather far left people

2018-10-02 13:39:14 UTC

Though I disagree with lots of

2018-10-02 13:39:19 UTC

the things they say

2018-10-02 13:39:35 UTC

They do have the occasional speck of gold in their huge mountain of dirt

2018-10-02 13:39:41 UTC

I try not to give them my clicks. its the only way to hurt them

2018-10-02 13:41:09 UTC

good conversation

2018-10-02 13:41:26 UTC


2018-10-02 13:51:52 UTC

@Jes no it isnt. you didnt listen to what i was saying if you believe that

2018-10-02 13:52:03 UTC

I said that an accused naturally will deny it

2018-10-02 13:52:13 UTC

so i give more weight to an accuser but wont take action without evidence

2018-10-02 13:52:35 UTC

it is substantially more likely a someone deny allegations than someone make false allegations

2018-10-02 13:52:50 UTC

so i weigh a accusation slightly higher but no action should be taken without evidence

2018-10-02 14:10:46 UTC

β€œIt is more important that innocence be protected than it is that guilt be punished, for guilt and crimes are so frequent in this world that they cannot all be punished.
But if innocence itself is brought to the bar and condemned, perhaps to die, then the citizen will say, 'whether I do good or whether I do evil is immaterial, for innocence itself is no protection,' and if such an idea as that were to take hold in the mind of the citizen that would be the end of security whatsoever.” - John Adams

2018-10-02 14:12:24 UTC

@Timcast cool, I must have missed that bit.

2018-10-02 14:13:18 UTC

thanks for clarifying

2018-10-02 14:22:54 UTC

@Timcast so what you're saying is... lobsters?

2018-10-02 14:58:11 UTC

So what you're saying is... All lobsters are rapists?

2018-10-02 14:58:22 UTC


2018-10-02 15:00:19 UTC

I think the issue here is that innocence is violated by the insinuation that there is _any_ validity to accusations which are almost beyond proof by definition.

2018-10-02 15:01:07 UTC

If you allow Dr. Ford's testimony to in any way affect your perception of Judge Kavanaugh's moral character, something has already been lost.

2018-10-02 15:01:17 UTC

That's because you're looking it as either
"The accusation is 100% correct"
"The accusation is 100% incorrect"

2018-10-02 15:01:42 UTC

It could be that Ford was assaulted, but not by Kav

2018-10-02 15:02:07 UTC

Sure, but that is also the crucial matter determining whether Kavanaugh is even 1% guilty, or whatever you want to call it.

2018-10-02 15:02:57 UTC

Right but it's not a necessary fact that Kavanaugh is guilty for Ford to have been a victim

2018-10-02 15:03:15 UTC

Sure, but what we are opining on here is not the guilt of Kavanaugh, not the existence of Ford's abuser.

2018-10-02 15:03:23 UTC

So you can believe that someone is victimized, and then go "okay, let's see if we can determine the victimizsr"

2018-10-02 15:03:35 UTC

because Ford's alternative perpetrator is not present, and has not been named.

2018-10-02 15:03:36 UTC

That's not what Tim's comments have necessarily addressed

2018-10-02 15:03:47 UTC

I've found he's made clear distinctions in general

2018-10-02 15:04:19 UTC

And even directly stated that it's possible, perhaps even probable, for Kav to be innocent and Ford to be a victim

2018-10-02 15:04:25 UTC

Sure, but I think it is hard to draw a clear distinction here between acknowledging accusations, and believing accusations.

2018-10-02 15:04:58 UTC

I can fully acknowledge Dr. Ford's testimony without believing its contents, which include fingering Judge Kavanaugh as the perpetrator.

2018-10-02 15:05:22 UTC

but I must be careful not to characterize the acknowledgement as a "partial belief"

2018-10-02 15:05:36 UTC

because Judge Kavanaugh can't really be _a little bit guilty of sexual assault_.

2018-10-02 15:05:42 UTC

You can also believe some or nearly all of her testimony without presuming the guilt of Kavanaugh

2018-10-02 15:07:07 UTC

My point is that belief in the parts of the accuser's testimony which are insufficient to establish the crime alleged should not have any effect on my perception of the accused as guilty of that crime.

2018-10-02 15:07:37 UTC


2018-10-02 15:08:35 UTC

Otherwise that gives the broad public the ability to generally paint anyone as guilty of just about anything.

2018-10-02 15:08:50 UTC

(if only to the slightest degree)

2018-10-02 15:10:17 UTC

Here is something that is absolutely accurate

2018-10-02 15:18:51 UTC

Pence was right

2018-10-02 15:19:03 UTC

Right about what?

2018-10-02 15:19:20 UTC

Using principles to avoid the specter of impropriety?

2018-10-02 15:19:42 UTC

You still need records, to complete that deal.

2018-10-02 15:20:06 UTC


2018-10-02 15:20:25 UTC

Doesn't protect Mike Pence from the "Mike and his buddy tied me up and spitroast me in a DC alley!" type accusations.

2018-10-02 15:21:47 UTC


2018-10-02 15:27:06 UTC

Well, you can always go full NEET and then make sure whenever you go ANYWHERE you have a camera on you AND... I was going to say a woman with you but what if that woman is the one that accuses you?

2018-10-02 15:30:45 UTC


2018-10-02 15:34:26 UTC

my god we're all fucked

2018-10-02 15:34:30 UTC

Well, I don't record 100% of the time currently, but most of the time yes.

2018-10-02 15:34:34 UTC


2018-10-02 15:34:43 UTC

usually not video

2018-10-02 15:52:09 UTC

I agree with @xorgy on this matter. Giving Ford the characteristics honest and credible are not appropriate because the one thing she is sure of (100%) is that the attack was done by Kavanaugh. Everything else she was unsure of. Saying you partially believe her when pretty much the entirety of her accusation is "Kavanaugh assaulted me" is not giving Kavanuagh any presumption of innocence. Because you now only arguing over what percent of an assault Kavanaugh executed. Even if you're separating the issue better in your head when you say she's honest all other people hear is Kavanugh is guilty.

2018-10-02 15:53:41 UTC

Can we start funding the mass immigration of leftists to Europe
that would benefit everyone involved

2018-10-02 15:53:53 UTC

Agreed. Let's kickstarter that shit

2018-10-02 15:54:10 UTC

I'm still waiting for all the people who threatened to leave to actually leave

2018-10-02 15:54:23 UTC

Well it won't be willingly.

2018-10-02 15:55:37 UTC

We would all be so much happier
separation is preferable to a big bloody war and lgbt death squads

2018-10-02 15:56:03 UTC

i can't really imagine an lgbt death squad without laughing

2018-10-02 15:56:18 UTC

This is why powerful federal government is bad. The states were supposed to be that separation.

2018-10-02 15:56:31 UTC


2018-10-02 15:56:57 UTC

They literally hate everything that america is based on but they can't summon the balls to move to the european paradises they idolise so much
They'd rather just tare down the lincoln memorial and burn the bill of rights thAn move to the countries that they belong in

2018-10-02 15:58:24 UTC

I tell you the day that they come for the John Parker statue will be the day I grab my musket

2018-10-02 16:00:28 UTC


2018-10-02 16:00:54 UTC


2018-10-02 16:01:05 UTC

mine is a metaphorical one but you can buy them

2018-10-02 16:01:19 UTC

oh. Well now I want a real one

2018-10-02 16:01:27 UTC

i gotta get my handgun and AR first

2018-10-02 16:02:37 UTC

by handgun you mean colt revolver and by AR you mean Henry Lever Action right?

2018-10-02 16:02:44 UTC


2018-10-02 16:02:59 UTC

id like to get those eventually but I need to get the guns I want for my home defense first

2018-10-02 16:04:34 UTC

I would grab an AR as quickly as possible actually

2018-10-02 16:05:08 UTC

but if you havent fired a HLA from horseback yet you aren't american 🀠

2018-10-02 16:06:27 UTC

@Deleted User I'm not spending the money to ride a horse rn

2018-10-02 16:06:43 UTC

I'll look forward to it when i go to Texas on vacation

2018-10-02 16:07:18 UTC

Not an expert, but as a manager in various companies, HR generally provides good guides/training for you in cases like this. Dr. Ford being a Psychologist should be smarter than me. The first thing they advise, is to tell an employee is gather corroborating evidence and document. If there is little evidence the employee can still go forward with the case and can confront the perpetrator, but they need to be aware of the potential consequences where little proof is available. Dr. Ford is either mental or a liar, as a professional in this field she would know these things. Even if what she says is true, you do not have the right to smear people like this. Her coming forward like this is almost certainly political motivated, and the trauma she talks about is manufactured for TV.

2018-10-02 16:08:22 UTC

Every day I'm happier I don't work with women

2018-10-02 16:49:48 UTC

What kinda place you work with no women?

2018-10-02 16:51:04 UTC

Systems Administrator and 365 Engineer at an MSP

2018-10-02 16:51:22 UTC

So information technology

2018-10-02 16:51:56 UTC

Why have no women forced their way in? Is he work hard?

2018-10-02 16:52:23 UTC

It's high paced usually but we've been slow for a couple months

2018-10-02 16:52:34 UTC

Odd hours?

2018-10-02 16:52:40 UTC

We've had a couple get hired but they have failed to make it here

2018-10-02 16:52:56 UTC

Usually out within 60 days

2018-10-02 18:02:10 UTC

@Deleted User & @oprahsminge Nooooooooo! we have far to many far lefties here already. unless you gonna sponser my move to the states?

2018-10-02 18:02:35 UTC


2018-10-02 18:02:43 UTC

you're getting ours airdropped

2018-10-02 18:02:53 UTC

no refunds

2018-10-02 18:03:11 UTC

oh airdropped is fine. from say 35,000 feet without a parachute?

2018-10-02 18:03:27 UTC

we're trying to determine if we really want to spend money on parachutes

2018-10-02 18:03:37 UTC

no chutes

2018-10-02 18:03:43 UTC

maybe we do one for every 15 and let them fight on the way down for it

2018-10-02 18:04:51 UTC

nah lets be capitolists about it. sell them a chute before being pushed. help the national debt at the same time

2018-10-02 18:05:34 UTC

^ winning idea

2018-10-02 18:05:49 UTC

you should hear how I'd monetise death row then lol

2018-10-02 18:06:03 UTC

but itd get me banned fo sure

2018-10-02 18:14:12 UTC

The Pinochet method huh.

2018-10-02 18:14:34 UTC

@Jes Yes you must come to the states
the great exchange can be leftists to Europe
rightists to the US
both sides can be in cultures that align with their ideals

2018-10-02 18:14:58 UTC

I'd rather fix the country I'm in

2018-10-02 18:15:13 UTC

of course these days rightist includes classical liberals and basically anyone who isn't socialist

2018-10-02 18:15:22 UTC

so we'll have diverse opinions at least

2018-10-02 18:30:17 UTC

@Deleted User it's anyone who basically isn't a communist

2018-10-02 18:30:26 UTC

Like early 1900's all over again

2018-10-02 19:06:11 UTC

Today, right and left are relative of an ever shifting center.

2018-10-02 19:06:19 UTC

A center that moves further and further left.

2018-10-02 19:06:51 UTC

I would go look at that Tim video, which I'm sure you did already, where Tim shows the data for the shift.

2018-10-02 19:07:09 UTC

It's interesting how little shift on the right happened by comparison to me at least

2018-10-02 19:07:19 UTC

The shift he presented was for Democrats and Republicans.

2018-10-02 19:08:25 UTC

According to politics not too long ago, both parties would be left.

2018-10-02 19:08:57 UTC

if you judge it by TODAY'S standard of what "left" is, then you would say the left would be right wing

2018-10-02 19:09:07 UTC

while the right has shifted slightly left to at least some degree

2018-10-02 19:09:16 UTC

Yes. That is why I referred to a shifting center.

2018-10-02 19:09:39 UTC

Left and right only makes sense in relation to the current center, not as absolute terms, in that context.

2018-10-02 19:10:40 UTC

Otherwise, they would still refer to the original meaning of pro monarchy and pro democracy affiliations, as the term was first used during the French Revolution.

2018-10-02 19:10:55 UTC

Now, it's kind of murky what "left" and "right" means.

2018-10-02 19:11:26 UTC

If Hitler is extreme right and Stalin extreme left, what am I? Halfway between Stalin and Hitler? That makes no sense.

2018-10-02 19:13:35 UTC

hitler is third position

2018-10-02 19:28:46 UTC

@Deleted User thats the plan.
Downside of splitting that way is the right tends to not change when needed. without the left to pull them forward the right only leads to stagnation

2018-10-02 19:29:09 UTC

also good oppersition keeps people working on better ideas.

2018-10-02 19:29:44 UTC

@oprahsminge yes mate, the Conservative party in the UK is majority centre left now

2018-10-02 19:30:02 UTC

as the overton window shifted.

2018-10-02 19:30:10 UTC

they went with it

2018-10-02 19:31:06 UTC

@Undead Mockingbird Hitler wasnt extreme right. some of his ideas were but mostly he was a far lefty

2018-10-02 19:31:20 UTC

Well, pick whoever you like.

2018-10-02 19:31:23 UTC


2018-10-02 19:31:34 UTC

You will probably find that it makes just as little sense to present it as a continuous spectrum.

2018-10-02 19:32:12 UTC

I think as long as we all keep talking and no one starts claiming X group is superior/inferior/evil/good ect we should make it through this folly

2018-10-02 19:32:29 UTC


2018-10-02 19:32:38 UTC

Except people who put toilet paper upset down.

2018-10-02 19:32:43 UTC

the individual is the only minority that matters πŸ˜ƒ

2018-10-02 19:32:51 UTC

hahaha ❀

2018-10-02 19:33:45 UTC

There is ONE proper way to put the toilet paper on the holder. All humans should have rights - except the ones that put the toilet paper coming from UNDER onto the holder.

2018-10-02 19:34:08 UTC

If we could eliminate all such people, utopia would be achieved.

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