debate

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2018-11-22 19:44:01 UTC

Let’s d e b a t e

2018-11-22 19:44:38 UTC

Topic?

2018-11-22 19:44:49 UTC

πŸ€·β€β™€οΈ

2018-11-22 20:17:07 UTC

Do you think there has been any reliable study on why women seem to be generally better in languages and men better in maths/sciences? Do you think this is even the case?

2018-11-22 20:18:31 UTC

Not sure about studies... But it ties into the people vs things argument. People speak languages, things speak math

2018-11-22 21:25:16 UTC

There are studies suggesting that this is true

2018-11-22 21:25:35 UTC

I believe it has something to do with how men and women think and view the world

2018-11-22 21:26:39 UTC

Women approach something by looking at it as a whole. Parts only contribute to the whole, and only the whole is assessed

2018-11-22 21:26:58 UTC

Men like to break bigger things into parts

2018-11-22 21:27:36 UTC

Breaking big concepts into parts is crucial to fields like math/science, where the questions being answered don't have an easy solution you can just observe. You can't solve problems in these fields without first breaking them into stages, or steps, or testable metrics

2018-11-22 21:29:06 UTC

For fields studying language and society, linguistics anthropology psychology etc., The whole is ultimately the only thing that matters. The whole language is how we communicate. The whole culture defines the society. The whole brain is how we think

2018-11-22 21:29:18 UTC

Putting parts together into a whole is a big deal in those fields

2018-11-22 21:29:43 UTC

That's why women have a tendency to take these kinds of jobs, while men take jobs that involve breaking big, complex questions into parts

2018-11-22 21:30:17 UTC

Does that help, @Fred?

2018-11-23 21:59:59 UTC

@Rai yea thats basically what i thought too but reading a paper on it would be very interesting

2018-11-24 08:52:08 UTC

Language is more important in terms of evolution to women than men. Women are better at colour perception because of the traditional foraging role, they are better at communication as they are the news network and library of bronze-age society.

Men meanwhile, as the hunters and warriors, need to be better at split-second decision making based on precise analysis of the environmental data. it is also more vital for bronze-age man to make precise, calculated decisions as they are often life-or-death, whilst for women the imperative is on maintaining emotional and social cohesion of the group.

Of course it is worth noting that these are generalisations and you will get some women better suited to hunting, construction, fighting and so forth and some men better at recalling knowledge or social cohesion. But in general, these principles continue into the present day and result in the skew in vocations that men and women continue to exhibit, even when women have more-than-equal oppertunities to take up roles in traditional-male roles.

2018-11-25 23:50:04 UTC

@Skellious While these traits may be true for the evolution of past ages, what advantage do these things mean to our current age? We have built a society around NOT using brute force or physical prowess. Communication is king, yet it is still men that dominate the scholarly and philosophical pursuits. Should it not be women that hold this mantle with their enhanced evolution of perception and communication?

2018-11-26 02:21:20 UTC

@Silver_The_Bard Actually, studies show women do better in school than men. How much of this is due to biased teachers and department standards varies

2018-11-26 02:22:42 UTC

But I'd say most of it can be chalked up to the teaching style used today. Students get lectured at and try their best to remember it and regurgitate it on an exam, which is not quite how it was even one generation ago. Women are better at school as it is today

2018-11-26 02:24:24 UTC

It could also be because there are more services, scholarships etc. designed to help women, as well as more women being admitted into college in general equating to more chances for success

2018-11-26 02:24:41 UTC

Another factor, like I mentioned, is department standards

2018-11-26 02:25:25 UTC

Liberal arts departments like psychology give extra credit in their courses more often, while STEM, business, and other majors men would do better in hardly ever give extra credit

2018-11-26 02:26:57 UTC

Studies also show teachers mark girls less harshly

2018-11-26 02:27:20 UTC

Like I said, bias from instructors plays a role. The bias gets worse if the teacher is female

2018-11-26 02:29:23 UTC

Therefore I don't find it accurate to say they do better in school, but that others skew the results so they appear to. They aren't gaining that by themselves

2018-11-26 02:29:36 UTC

No, the actual style is more suited to women

2018-11-26 02:29:45 UTC

Bias plays a role, but it's not the only factor

2018-11-26 02:30:12 UTC

Men tend to enjoy learning through experience

2018-11-26 02:30:26 UTC

The number of degrees that employ this type of learning is very low

2018-11-26 02:32:36 UTC

I don't deny that the environment and method is more suited toward the way girls learn, but without the bias by itself I do think there'd be a marked improvement to at least bring boys up to the same level. I'll agree that the bias varies and it's not the only factor but it's not like it's a small factor

2018-11-26 02:32:59 UTC

Yes, I agree, but I also think that many of the factors need to be addressed

2018-11-26 02:33:10 UTC

Protocols need to be put in place to reduce bias

2018-11-26 02:33:28 UTC

Other methods of learning need to be incorporated into the education system

2018-11-26 02:33:44 UTC

More services need to help men, or just everyone neutrally

2018-11-26 02:34:40 UTC

And more men need to be admitted. Though that might be fixed by fixing the above

2018-11-26 02:35:47 UTC

Some of the services which are aimed at boys in education also need to be scrapped. The rate at which boys (and some girls too) are diagnosed with ADHD or other disorders and medicated simply for being themselves is way higher than the societal average

2018-11-26 02:36:25 UTC

Yeah, misdiagnosis of ADHD for just ordinary boyish behavior is a huge problem

2018-11-26 02:36:46 UTC

The real problem lies with the education system

2018-11-26 02:37:12 UTC

We need to bring back recess and allow more experiential learning in schools among other things

2018-11-26 02:43:38 UTC

Very well put. I've also seen the increases in certain departments. Humanities is definitely higher up there in female participation.

2018-11-26 02:43:52 UTC

But what about philosophy?

2018-11-26 02:46:02 UTC

What we claim as the intrinsic ability to delve into ourselves, the constructs we create and the nature of the universe. It would seem that the supposed evolutionary advantages should incline more women to participate. But I hardly see anything that's not Feminism based.

2018-11-26 02:47:04 UTC

Heck, we had two male based ideologies spawn from what it took women 60 years to cultivate. MRA and MGTOW. And technically INCEL if you want to count it.

2018-11-26 02:48:17 UTC

In all of my days at the university, I have found it such a challenge to get a group of women to sit down and discuss philosophy. Open ended without being forced by a professor.

2018-11-26 02:50:15 UTC

But if you just give a hand full of cannabis or psychedelics to a group of men and eventually the conversation turns to philosophy.

2018-11-26 02:51:55 UTC

The point I'm trying to get to: Trying to make a basis of biological evolution for the way that either men or women interact with our current society is folly. There are too many conflicting variables.

2018-11-26 02:52:06 UTC

I like this

2018-11-26 02:52:14 UTC

this is,good

2018-11-26 02:52:20 UTC

good job

2018-11-26 03:10:23 UTC

I find it preposterous when anyone tries to claim that were growing as a society because of the increased female numbers in higher academia. Are they flocking to the four cornerstones that enhance our society? (Politics: Systems creation) (Economy: Systems maintenance and resource allocation) (Technology: Systems enhancement) (Philosophy: Human improvement.) No.

2018-11-26 03:13:10 UTC

They are flooding humanities (Definition of what a human WAS) and Medical (Human maintenance). The humanities flooding allows them to start altering the viewpoint of what humans were BEFORE, and use that as a rational of why we should be doing what they think. It’s like if I didn’t like the house I built, so I went back, misinterpreted the blueprints, and sued the builder for doing it wrong.

2018-11-26 03:14:00 UTC

That is NOT a healthy way to build a society.

2018-11-26 04:10:04 UTC

@Silver_The_Bard Women aren't evil, just feminists seeking to inject their ideology into completely unrelated fields

2018-11-26 04:10:22 UTC

I'm sure there are plenty of non-feminist women in the humanities and many other fields

2018-11-26 04:11:00 UTC

And of course most feminists are completely normal and good people. So a fraction of a fraction.

2018-11-26 04:11:42 UTC

Indeed, but I still feel that feminists in general are misguided but I'll leave that for another debate

2018-11-26 04:11:57 UTC

Also, some humanities fields aren't just about the background of humanity or society

2018-11-26 04:12:21 UTC

Psychology in particular covers the human mind and behavior in general

2018-11-26 04:12:36 UTC

It's just as applicable today as it is to many years ago

2018-11-26 04:13:40 UTC

Good people putting themselves under the banner of feminism, only gives credibility to the 'top' feminists who actually influence and institute policies which are sexist and harm men. Therefore I dont really care who you are, if you call yourself a feminist, you are my enemy.

2018-11-26 04:14:55 UTC

The definition of feminism in the dictionary is as follows:

1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes

2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

2018-11-26 04:15:13 UTC

Definition 1 seems harmless enough, but definition 2 makes it clear that this is a women's movement

2018-11-26 04:15:23 UTC

Correct

2018-11-26 04:15:28 UTC

feminism is for women

2018-11-26 04:15:31 UTC

Their argument is equality, but the only care about women

2018-11-26 04:15:46 UTC

Which normally would be fine, provided men get their own movement

2018-11-26 04:15:51 UTC

Problem is feminism fights against that

2018-11-26 04:16:06 UTC

Not because they oppose men's advocacy though

2018-11-26 04:16:19 UTC

Because MRAs are sexist AFATK

2018-11-26 04:17:24 UTC

Doesn't matter what their reason is. That they oppose equality and won't listen to other arguments is the point. Why is irrelevent.

2018-11-26 04:17:59 UTC

There's plenty of documented examples of feminism organizing against men's concerns when it conflicts with their agenda

2018-11-26 04:18:08 UTC

Instead of working with us, they try to shut us out of the discussion

2018-11-26 04:18:14 UTC

Sometimes violently

2018-11-26 04:18:14 UTC

And why?

2018-11-26 04:18:21 UTC

That is the real question

2018-11-26 04:18:31 UTC

That they do these things is not doubted

2018-11-26 04:18:45 UTC

but to say it is because they oppose equality is at best misguided

2018-11-26 04:19:01 UTC

It's accurate no matter their reason.

2018-11-26 04:19:17 UTC

Why do you think why they do it changes that they do?

2018-11-26 04:19:26 UTC

It does not

2018-11-26 04:19:30 UTC

I never said it does

2018-11-26 04:19:42 UTC

but it changes how we can judge them on it

2018-11-26 04:19:49 UTC

and how we can solve the problem

2018-11-26 04:20:00 UTC

You just said it's misguided to say they oppose equality, when it's a factual statement.

2018-11-26 04:20:21 UTC

They do not oppose equality

2018-11-26 04:20:31 UTC

They oppose groups that supposedly fight for equality

2018-11-26 04:20:31 UTC

@InsaneCaterpilla's logic is sound, but just to break down the argument into simple points that can be understood:

2018-11-26 04:20:46 UTC

that is different than deliberately opposing all equality

2018-11-26 04:20:56 UTC

1) Feminism only cares about women while arguing for equality, by definition

2018-11-26 04:21:02 UTC

Yes

2018-11-26 04:21:06 UTC

Same with the MRM

2018-11-26 04:21:14 UTC

2) The MRM primarily cares about men while arguing for equality, by definition

2018-11-26 04:21:22 UTC

correct

2018-11-26 04:21:37 UTC

3) Only feminism has tried to shut the MRM out of the discussion. We've been trying to work with them for years

2018-11-26 04:21:53 UTC

r/menslib does it fairly well

2018-11-26 04:22:11 UTC

r/menslib dismisses genuine problems men face in society

2018-11-26 04:22:21 UTC

They're an arm of feminism

2018-11-26 04:22:27 UTC

Sorry to interject but have you seen menslib?

2018-11-26 04:22:31 UTC

@Rai right

2018-11-26 04:22:51 UTC

Yes I have. I actually prefer it to r/mensrights right now

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