Geamr

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If you try to impose the old system again, or create a new autocracy

something like that would be a counter-revolution

@Deleted User Read rosa luxemburgs reform or revolution

this was exactly the issue they were discussing in the eฬถaฬถrฬถlฬถyฬถ ฬถwฬถeฬถiฬถmฬถaฬถrฬถ ฬถrฬถeฬถpฬถuฬถbฬถlฬถiฬถcฬถ 1899

and she gave a fantastic retort to that kind of thinking

Her analysis is eerily applicable today i found

many of the things she writes about you can see first hand happening today

what does that have to do with anything @PugSlugger

if you think that then i find that kinda sad tbh

or you're just trolling, allright then

or we just dont care to engage with arguments that have no substance and would require you to have actual knowledge of marx and the argument you are attacking

I read the whole thing

it has nothing to do with money

the market economy is the exploitative part

not the paying the worker less than he makes

you don't have to force people to pay anything for the goods you create

if you don't rely on exchange to acquire your neccesities

only in a market economy friend

it's not the only way things can be

A market economy is a system whereby you exchange your labor power for money which allows you to purchase your necessities in a free market

but the only free thing about the market is who you buy from, you are not free to NOT use the market

Capitalism evolved around the early enlightenment period i believe as cities became more important trade and financial centers and a class of wealthy and influential merchants and investors emerged and more and more working people migrated to the cities.

Then what is your answer

nonsense

mesopotamia was a planned economy

everything was set by the ruling class

how much wheat you grow and how many shoes you make

was administrated by a bureaucracy

which we have evidence of

since they had writing

and we found artifacts

Capitalism is defined by a market economy

not by money

Fuckin chinks, eh?

yes but that does not create capitalism either

the market does

property is not capitalism either

you have property in socialism too

OK one last time

THE MARKET

is what defines capitalism

or more strictly the "free market"

and when did people start owning the means of production individually? The late enlightenment.

and the emerging market made it possible

"free" market

is what i said

but before then it was not capitalism

so then where do we disagree again?

we were arguing about when capitalism began

what does china have to do with itt

so do you still believe capitalism started before the late enlightenment or not?

When was there capitalism before then?

Personal property is not private property

the farmer that owns his tools is not a capitalist

and in the medieval period famers didn't own their land, they rented it and payed part of the harvest as rent

he doesn't

he works his own land

because his feudal lord lent it to him for that exact purpose

then where was capitalism?

what specific civilization practiced it in what time period?

it is not

nothing we do is natural, farming wasnt natural, cities weren't natural, the natural argument is transparent deflection

capitalism does many things well, nobody denies that

humans made it

not because they were trying to or because of some invisible force that drives them to want coca cola, it's just how history played out

that's not what capitalism is either

If you make something with your own tools and sell it for money, that is not a capitalist market exchange

most people working on farms were serfs

they did not get paid, they recieved food and shelter and protection

what little money they got was from selling goods they created

Most places until the enlightenment yes

history is not a series of logical events in sequence

humans are not logical

If you pay your serfs then they are no longer dependent on you

why would a feudal lord want that

I'm just talking europe because i know a little bit about that

People in the past were just as intelligent as we are, they just had worse access to education and information or our accumulated knowledge

so nice derailing of the argument

you still haven't shown a capitalist society before the enlightenment

and donald trump things climate change is a chinese scam

idiots do not prove general intelligence was lower

lol

this reminds me of that Its always sunny episode

this is basically you right now

most philosophy until the 16th century was still based on aristotelian concepts

i'd say he was pretty damn smart

smart people can come to wrong conclusions

where did i say that

yeah to "ancient greeks" in general, not aristotle in particular

i did not know he believed that, but i do not think he was an idiot

back then there was no such thing as empirical science and knowledge was a luxury good

access to education != being smarter than someone

the bronze age actually had a big boom in agriculture, and i don't think that was feudalism already

wait your sentence doesn't make sense

very slowly, but yeah, and apparently a lot more sustainable than the bronze age system

which eventually led to more accumulation of wealth and creating the merchant class, making cities important trading and financial centers and giving rise to capitalism

feudalism is the same as the feudal era i'd say, that's what i meant

i don't know enough about the development of agriculture tech in that period, but i meant slow through todays lens

but yeah technological advances were accelerating in earnest around then and really jumped in the enlightenment era after

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