Geamr
Discord ID: 140876148375683072
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If you try to impose the old system again, or create a new autocracy
something like that would be a counter-revolution
@Deleted User Read rosa luxemburgs reform or revolution
this was exactly the issue they were discussing in the eฬถaฬถrฬถlฬถyฬถ ฬถwฬถeฬถiฬถmฬถaฬถrฬถ ฬถrฬถeฬถpฬถuฬถbฬถlฬถiฬถcฬถ 1899
and she gave a fantastic retort to that kind of thinking
Her analysis is eerily applicable today i found
many of the things she writes about you can see first hand happening today
what does that have to do with anything @PugSlugger
if you think that then i find that kinda sad tbh
or you're just trolling, allright then
or we just dont care to engage with arguments that have no substance and would require you to have actual knowledge of marx and the argument you are attacking
I read the whole thing
it has nothing to do with money
the market economy is the exploitative part
not the paying the worker less than he makes
you don't have to force people to pay anything for the goods you create
if you don't rely on exchange to acquire your neccesities
only in a market economy friend
it's not the only way things can be
A market economy is a system whereby you exchange your labor power for money which allows you to purchase your necessities in a free market
but the only free thing about the market is who you buy from, you are not free to NOT use the market
Capitalism evolved around the early enlightenment period i believe as cities became more important trade and financial centers and a class of wealthy and influential merchants and investors emerged and more and more working people migrated to the cities.
Then what is your answer
nonsense
mesopotamia was a planned economy
everything was set by the ruling class
how much wheat you grow and how many shoes you make
was administrated by a bureaucracy
which we have evidence of
since they had writing
and we found artifacts
Capitalism is defined by a market economy
not by money
Fuckin chinks, eh?
yes but that does not create capitalism either
the market does
property is not capitalism either
you have property in socialism too
OK one last time
THE MARKET
is what defines capitalism
or more strictly the "free market"
and when did people start owning the means of production individually? The late enlightenment.
and the emerging market made it possible
"free" market
is what i said
but before then it was not capitalism
so then where do we disagree again?
we were arguing about when capitalism began
what does china have to do with itt
so do you still believe capitalism started before the late enlightenment or not?
When was there capitalism before then?
Personal property is not private property
the farmer that owns his tools is not a capitalist
and in the medieval period famers didn't own their land, they rented it and payed part of the harvest as rent
he doesn't
he works his own land
because his feudal lord lent it to him for that exact purpose
then where was capitalism?
what specific civilization practiced it in what time period?
it is not
nothing we do is natural, farming wasnt natural, cities weren't natural, the natural argument is transparent deflection
capitalism does many things well, nobody denies that
humans made it
not because they were trying to or because of some invisible force that drives them to want coca cola, it's just how history played out
that's not what capitalism is either
If you make something with your own tools and sell it for money, that is not a capitalist market exchange
most people working on farms were serfs
they did not get paid, they recieved food and shelter and protection
what little money they got was from selling goods they created
Most places until the enlightenment yes
history is not a series of logical events in sequence
humans are not logical
If you pay your serfs then they are no longer dependent on you
why would a feudal lord want that
I'm just talking europe because i know a little bit about that
People in the past were just as intelligent as we are, they just had worse access to education and information or our accumulated knowledge
so nice derailing of the argument
you still haven't shown a capitalist society before the enlightenment
and donald trump things climate change is a chinese scam
idiots do not prove general intelligence was lower
lol
this reminds me of that Its always sunny episode
this is basically you right now
most philosophy until the 16th century was still based on aristotelian concepts
i'd say he was pretty damn smart
smart people can come to wrong conclusions
where did i say that
yeah to "ancient greeks" in general, not aristotle in particular
i did not know he believed that, but i do not think he was an idiot
back then there was no such thing as empirical science and knowledge was a luxury good
access to education != being smarter than someone
the bronze age actually had a big boom in agriculture, and i don't think that was feudalism already
wait your sentence doesn't make sense
very slowly, but yeah, and apparently a lot more sustainable than the bronze age system
which eventually led to more accumulation of wealth and creating the merchant class, making cities important trading and financial centers and giving rise to capitalism
feudalism is the same as the feudal era i'd say, that's what i meant
i don't know enough about the development of agriculture tech in that period, but i meant slow through todays lens
but yeah technological advances were accelerating in earnest around then and really jumped in the enlightenment era after
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