is this a tankie chat

but is it like all tankies

or just

kinda tankies

oh

ok good

oh

oi

im just watching the vine marathon here

i didn't read any of the scrollback but

isn't commonfilth literally /pol/

oh hey that was on tli too

oh hey it was the same guy

sorry i'm not good at russian i misread it for something completely different lol

yeah ik

im super tired

so i shouldnt trust myself to go online and act like a human being

i mean

this would have been in my edgy "wow cringe" phase

that i paid attention to commonfilth

i don't think i actually browsed /pol/ back then but i definitely shared jew memes

and talked about """"cultural marxism""""

wait why

libertarian socialist with bookchinite characteristics here. any M-Ls willing to talk? i think i want to understand their philosophy more, and possibly sort out our differences. i'm looking to learn about more sects of leftism than the one i was first introduced to.

they're very unimpressive sorry

@Firefly how am i spooked?

no i'm actually stupid

@Firefly so? there's still organized groups of people ("sects") who disagree with each other but claim to be leftist, hence "different sects of leftism"

i mean as a libsoc i wouldn't consider a large porton of ML's leftists, but their goal is still inevitably communism, and there's always the chance their literature might be different than a lot of their fanbase

there are still different branches of philosophy though with fundamental disagreement

there's stuff i'd like to know and don't really know the proper books to read or videos to watch, stuff like MLs issue with democracy and how they can depend on the state to protect the proles

the chat is getting cluttered though

so we should move this to english_theory

@Firefly

wait a min i get it

the fracture isn't good, i don't understand what's wrong with syndicalism though

although i think the fracture has legitimate reason, there are disagreements that need to be resolved

yeah i read that, sorry i glossed over it the first time

isn't syndicalism democratic worker union management

like i know a few deleonists

how so?

hm

so you are pro-democracy pro-centralization?

so isn't there a possibility of the party that works in the proletariat's interests forming a new ruling class?

wouldn't this eventually degenerate into fascism though

...?

i guess, but some are better than others at avoiding that problem

of course even in some ideal anarchist society fascism could be caused by violent revolution

but ML society mid-transition makes it easier with one central council controlling everything and trying to maintain their power, does it not?

why is one man running things advantageous?

it seems like you're depending on a very weak link here

how do you determine the smartest man? might?

why not have discourse between several people and reach the truth democratically?

i'm not that well versed in theory but i'm sure there are a few criticisms of lenin's work out there

ofc i'd have no way to tell if they're valid or not without reading them

link?

and maybe some relevant excerpts of some of the criticisms?

okay

so in a hypothetical, say some guy named Steven wrote some really good theory and had the best ideas

wouldn't the population be convinced of it, and would elect him?

okay, i actually agree with you there

wouldn't his ideas become policy with democratic decision-making, then?

you wouldn't need to put him in absolute leadership

if i read and understand what he writes, don't i understand how to do things as well as he does?

the randian "most people are stupid" argument doesn't ring with me here

if i am educated on what Steven writes, and Steven is correct, wouldn't the masses be convinced?

i mean if a human can write something a human can understand it

it's not like the "masses" are animals that need to be lead by a shepherd.

to focus on it for 20 years?

where did this number come from?

"It is my personal feeling how it is"

isn't this literally feels before reals?

couldn't the population, if it was simply a matter of decisionmaking instead of writing, read some kind of reductionist summary?

couldn't you incorporate it into school education then

that's 12 years

or however long you want

proof?

i thought abstract thinking develops around age 12 or so

there are quite a few young inventors. in fact, that's when people start being inventive, although at that age they don't have the economic means to do anything with those ideas.

that's when they start learning though, and are able to grasp those kind of concepts.

obviously i don't think 12 year olds should vote

but i don't think you have to be 30 years old or something to understand marxism either.

proof?

lol no but seriously

like im pretty sure unless you're diseased

you will reach the formal-operational stage of cognitive development

The final stage is known as the formal operational stage (adolescence and into adulthood, roughly ages 11 to approximately 15–20): Intelligence is demonstrated through the logical use of symbols related to abstract concepts. This form of thought includes "assumptions that have no necessary relation to reality."[43] At this point, the person is capable of hypothetical and deductive reasoning. During this time, people develop the ability to think about abstract concepts.

Piaget stated that "hypothetico-deductive reasoning" becomes important during the formal operational stage. This type of thinking involves hypothetical "what-if" situations that are not always rooted in reality, i.e. counterfactual thinking. It is often required in science and mathematics.

Abstract thought emerges during the formal operational stage. Children tend to think very concretely and specifically in earlier stages, and begin to consider possible outcomes and consequences of actions.
Metacognition, the capacity for "thinking about thinking" that allows adolescents and adults to reason about their thought processes and monitor them.[44]
Problem-solving is demonstrated when children use trial-and-error to solve problems. The ability to systematically solve a problem in a logical and methodical way emerges.

While children in primary school years mostly used inductive reasoning, drawing general conclusions from personal experiences and specific facts, adolescents become capable of deductive reasoning, in which they draw specific conclusions from abstract concepts using logic. This capability results from their capacity to think hypothetically.[45]

i mean my opinion is essentially that wiki snippet

i think my opinions on psychology align with the established doctrine

it's piaget's final stage of cognitive development

it's called the "formal-operational stage"

people who reach this stage think hypothetically, and use deductive reasoning, they can understand abstract concepts

like the ones required for marxism

"However, research has shown that not all persons in all cultures reach formal operations, and most people do not use formal operations in all aspects of their lives".[46]

it says here that development can not be reached based on cultural factors

which means we need to educate for people to reach this stage

maybe people raised under capitalism often don't reach it

but we can fix that

still

i think a majority of people reach this stage