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which is more or less what I was pointing out
Roll some dice to determine the exact number of days until any 'right movement' is infested with Jews and libertarians
i don't understand @༺པརབྱར།བསངཇ༻
@༺པརབྱར།བསངཇ༻ I AM NOT SURE YOU ARE INCORPORATING THE NATURE OF IDEALISM INTO THAT
i don't agree that "I am actually just pure awareness which is actually God surrounded in all this horrible swelling and churning world of desire!" is true
MAYA IS THE IDEA OF MATERIAL DETERMINISM
Well forgetting whether or not we are undifferentiated propertyless awareness.
nor a fair assessment of the upanishads
THAT DENIES IMPORTANCE OF INNER WORLD AND TRANSCENDENT
what's your assessment @devolved
**look at you nerds arguing over abstractions with consequences you cannot even act upon anyway. What have you done so far with this short day in your one short life? go make something happen**
p sure you type more words here than anyone else
need a wordcounter
@༺པརབྱར།བསངཇ༻ god i guess
being aware of the divine at all times
externally and internally
yeah but *why*
because it's better that way
life is better
BECAUSE IT IS ACCURATE
WE CANNOT SEPARATE MAN FROM NATURE, LOGIC, AND THE DIVINE
IN PARALLEL
then it doesn't matter. If god is everywhere then everything is just doing whatever God wants.
from the blade of grass to the tranny
which is why god must have a will
for it to matter
Well then he's willing to mutilate his genitals and wear high heels
THAT WAS THE POINT SCHOPENHAUER MADE
LIFE HAS A WILL
THAT EXPANDS IN ALL DIRECTIONS
CONSCIOUSNESS IS NECESSARY TO MEDIATE THIS WILL
TO POINT IT UPWARD
Upward?
To what
He said life is will
The ground floor according to him was just non rational urging. Consciousness and later, thinking, are just grades of will so that it can better meet those urges
Of course he had his little judgement that this is all horrible and so we needed to stop existing altogether by ending craving
everything is alive
i think most of religion is discerning this will
I AGREE
UNION BETWEEN INTUITION AND THE ORDER OF NATURE
BACK TO PLATO
SCHOPENHAUER'S POINT ABOUT URGES WAS THE MOST PEOPLE PURSUE MATERIAL URGES LOOKING FOR MEANING
HE DID NOT YET REALIZE
THAT MOST OF THEM CANNOT DO OTHERWISE
it's all autism over Being. You can say there's some ground floor or whatever but if human history is anything to go by we can't make heads or tails of what that is.
THE GUMMIES ARE JUST GOING TO ACT OUT THEIR GENETIC PROGRAM
WHO IS "WE"?
SOME CAN
THE OTHERS INJECT CHAOS
You and I
TO TRY TO JUSTIFY THEIR OWN DESIRES
I DO NOT THINK WE ARE THAT DIVIDED, OR THAT LOST
KEEP IN MIND THAT THERE IS A REASON RELIGION IS WRITTEN IN METAPHOR
WE ARE NOTICING FORMS AND TENDENCIES OVER TIME, NOT TANGIBLE OBJECTS IN THE MOMENT
all you have to work with are representations made from a thin trickle of sensory data.
this is fine for navigating
but beyond that
@༺པརབྱར།བསངཇ༻ MANY THINGS MUST REMAIN MYSTERIES
THAT IS NOT PROBLEMATIC IN ITSELF
AFTER ALL, WE PROBABLY WOULD NOT UNDERSTAND THEM ANYWAY
DUNNING-KRUGER IS ALSO AN UPPER LIMIT ON THE HUMAN SPECIES
we are boat in a storm that has a little spot light at the front of it that let's us see the waves crash into each other and maybe a water spout in the distance we might want to avoid.
blah blah Dionysus
WE ARE ALSO ABLE TO SEE PATTERNS IN THE WAVES
Blah blah Apollo
THIS IS NOT A LIFE ALONE IN A VOID OF DATA
WE ARE IN FACT AWASH IN IT
THE QUESTION IS PATTERN RECOGNITION
I honestly don't even know what we are talking about at this point
that's why I left the conversation
I was looking at pants on amazon instead, at least that is remotely helpful to my life
We started talking about attitudes and the contents of books but our abstractions grew tentacles of their own and slithered into murky Eldritch swamps
NOT AT ALL
WE ARE STILL ON TOPIC
WE ARE DISCUSSING GERMAN IDEALISM
TRUE NATURE OF HIPPIES REVEALED
Schopenhauer took the middle way. He critiqued Berkeley and Hegel and the materialists
and materialism/idealism are just two autistically extreme polarities that only exist because folk western people decided on a mind/body divide. From there you get spirit and matter and away we go.
NOT IN THE SCHOPENHAUERIAN VIEW
OR THE KANTIAN
THE DIVIDE IS NOT BODY/MIND BUT CAUSE/EFFECT
WITH BOTH BEING IMPORTANT
SCHOPENHAUER MAKES THIS CLEAR
KANT IS LESS CLEAR, BUT IMPLIES IT HEAVILY
WHAT YOU ARE CALLING IDEALISM IS ACTUALLY DUALISM
I haven't defined that yet
idealism is a monism of two options:
1) reductionist - matter is actually the result of mental activity
2) eliminativist - matter doesn't exist there's just mental stuff.
Reverse it for materialism
Dualism is like, `yo dawg there are two independent substances. Dunno how they connect.`
YOU CONFLATE "IDEA" AND "MENTAL ACTIVITY" WHICH IS CLEARLY REJECTED
AND IT IS NOT REDUCTIONISM PER SE TO STATE THAT CAUSE/EFFECT RELATIONSHIPS APPLY TO MATTER AND IDEA
Can we avoid semantics
Like I know you know exactly the thinking I'm trying to put into words here
By that I mean clearly stating stuff that's come up in the history of ideas
IT IS NOT SEMANTICS TO UNDERSTAND A THEORY CORRECTLY, I WOULD THINK
DUALISM POSITS A SEPARATION BETWEEN MATERIAL AND IDEA
yeah
IDEALISM PRESENTS A UNIFIED NOTION, IS THAT CORRECT?
(I AM NOT TRYING TO RUN YOU DOWN HERE. AS I TOLD SEXILARCH, THIS IS A FRIENDLY CONVERSATION.)
(AND PEOPLE CAN FEEL FREE TO DISAGREE.)
There are two types of idealism
Oh I'm not upset
Or frustrated even
Just trying to lay out some background and context before even getting to schopenhauer
Are platonic forms dualism then
kinda outta scope since that theory came outta a different culture with a different set of folk assumptions
I mean obviously if you've read WWR platonism is mentioned
Ur a folk
And kinda synthesized
I'm asking @diversity_is_racism
Since I never understood what he meant by dualism
Oh
@devolved NO, BECAUSE THEY ARE MORE IN LINE WITH DUALISM
PLATONIC FORMS POSIT AN UNDERLYING ORDER TO THIS WORLD, NOT A SEPARATE WORLD
THIS GETS DIFFICULT BECAUSE THERE ARE POTENTIALLY ADDITIONAL DIMENSIONS OR LAYERS TO THIS WORLD
BUT UNLIKE DUALISM
THE RULES ARE NOT DIFERENT
THE TWO WORLDS ARE DIRECTLY JOINED
how do you personally join them
Like there's basically zero cause and effect relationship between Fingerness and the five digits protruding from my palm.
Not finish with this thread but it is a good read.
https://twitter.com/Freyaslight/status/953437362499047424
God bless Texas
@༺པརབྱར།བསངཇ༻ ACTUALLY, THE CORE OF THE ARGUMENT IS THAT THERE IS
FINGERNESS IS NOT A MATERIAL
IT IS A PATTERN (OUR WORD FOR "FORM")
What's the causal link between the immaterial form and the material object
Yours that is
THE MATHEMATICS OF PATTERN
A FINGER IS A SHAPE DESIGNED FOR A SERIES OF FUNCTIONS
THIS IS DETERMINED BY INTERACTIONS BETWEEN ITS PARTS AND THE OBJECTS ON WHICH IT ACTS
THUS ITS ESSENCE IS STRUCTURAL, OR INFORMATIONAL, NOT MATERIAL, OR RELATED TO WHAT IT IS MADE OF
FOR EXAMPLE, WE CAN MAKE REASONABLY ACCURATE ROBOTIC FINGERS
THEY EXHIBIT FINGERNESS
PHILOSOPHERS TEND TO USE THE CHAIR AS AN EXAMPLE BECAUSE IT IS THE SIMPLEST POSSIBLE CHOICE
ANYTHING WITH SUPPORT PLUS A BACK IS A CHAIR
NAIL A BOARD TO A STUMP AND IT WORKS JUST AS WELL
PLATO POSITS AN INFORMATIONAL CAUSE/EFFECT RELATIONSHIP
So the pattern exists prior right
THAT IS: THE DEMANDS OF THE SITUATION DETERMINE WHAT FILLS IT
THE PATTERN "EXISTS" IN THE FORMS OF THE MATHEMATICS OF THE UNIVERSE
IT IS LOGICAL THAT CHAIRNESS WILL BE THERE
FOR THIS REASON, THERE IS AN INFORMATIONAL SUBSTRATE TO THE UNIVERSE
AND THEREFORE, THOUGHTS INFLUENCE MATTER (CF. HERMETICISM) MUCHAS DEEDS DO
BUT WHAT MATTERS IN THE LONG TERM
IS HOW WE USE PHYSICALITY TO INFLUENCE THE PATTERNS AROUND US
I.E. WHAT IS ACHIEVED IN AN IDEALISTIC SENSE
THAT IS: THE DEMANDS OF THE SITUATION DETERMINE WHAT FILLS IT
THE PATTERN "EXISTS" IN THE FORMS OF THE MATHEMATICS OF THE UNIVERSE
Can you detail this out
these*
maybe with just an example
CONSIDER THE FORM OF A FISH
WE KNOW THE NATURE OF PLANETS AND THE NATURE OF WATER
Better
FOR LIFE TO SURVIVE IN WATER, IT MUST HAVE A FORM ADAPTED TO WATER
NAMELY, PROPULSION IS NOT LEGS (LOL)
SO YOU CAN IMAGINE THE SIMPLEST POSSIBLE FORM WOULD BE A FLIPPER WITH A HEAD
THEN, BECAUSE IT WILL NEED STABILITY AND STEERING, IT HAS FINS
ONE COULD ALSO USE THE EYE AS AN EXAMPLE
IN A WORLD WHERE VISION IS THE MOST EFFICIENT WAY TO ACCURATE ASSESS SURROUNDINGS
YOU NEED SOMETHING LIKE A LITTLE CAMERA
It's not good to start from that direction and work backward
It assumes that what happened had to happen and was the only way
NOT NECESSARILY
BECAUSE WE ARE NOT LOOKING AT CAUSALITY
BUT DEMANDS OF CONTEXT
DESIGN AN ANIMAL TO SWIM THROUGH WATER
DESIGNS WILL CONVERGE ON FISH SHAPES WHEN EFFICIENCY IS REQUIRED
For a long time, there was no species which occupied the human niche
E.G. I CAN ENVISION SOMETHING THAT SWIMS WITH TEN THOUSAND HANDS BUT
THAT IS NOT VERY EFFICIENT
There may yet be forms that haven't been seen
TO USE OR TO REPRODUCE
THERE MAY BE OTHER FORMS
And possibilities that could have been
THERE IS MORE THAN ONE WAY TO DO ANYTHING
BUT
A FISH IS THE SIMPLEST
SO IT IS INEVITABLE THAT SOMETHING LIKE IT WILL EXIST
IN THAT ENVIRONMENT
so your theory is that forms are basically emergent out of concrete relationships and certain demands
IF WE CHANGE FACTORS OF THAT ENVIRONMENT, THE DESIGN MAY CHANGE (FOR EXAMPLE, GRAVITY)
FORMS ARE EMERGENT FROM DESIGNS
GRAVITY IS AN IDEA, A DESIGN
IN INTERACTION WITH OTHER IDEAS
IT PRODUCES A LIMITED SET OF ANSWERS
what are ideas specifically
I agree with your sentiment, but nature's code is a black box and we only see the results of it being boilerplated
AND WHEN WE IMPOSE OTHER CRITERIA (EFFICIENCY, SURVIVABILITY)
THEN THE FIELD NARROWS FURTHER
I agree with your sentiment, but nature's code is a black box and we only see the result of it being boilerplated
IDEAS ARE CAUSAL PATTERNS
OF COURSE, @Hagel, WHICH IS WHY WE MUST USE ANALYSIS
AND COMPARE PATTERNS AND KNOWLEDGE
AND LOOK TOWARD OUR INTUITION
WHICH IS SHAPED BY OUR OWN PATTERNING.
where do ideas come from
^^^ SHE IS WAY TOO MASCULINE
IDEAS ARE THE STRUCTURE OF THE UNIVERSE
Or where do the patterns come from
CLEARLY THEY EXIST
BUT WE USUALLY CONFUSE THEM FOR THEIR MANIFESTATION
I'm just asking questions right now
IF WE VIEW THE UNIVERSE AS AN IDEA
Oh hi
WITH SOME PROPERTIES
What's going on, guys?
THEN OTHER PROPERTIES EMERGE FROM THE INTERACTION OF THOSE
HI @Fenix704
WE'RE GETTING DRUNK AND TALKING PLATONISM
lol
Uuuuuh
Atlantis....?
I haven't been taught this stuff yet guys, I'm trying
Does the structure change or is every idea always "out there*
I don't start Philosophy until this and the following course pass
HMM, WELL, HANG IN THERE
WE WILL EITHER LIBERATE YOUR MIND OR MAKE YOU FAIL THE COURSE
@༺པརབྱར།བསངཇ༻ THE IDEA IS INHERENT TO THE COMPOSITION OF THE UNIVERSE
WHICH ITSELF IS AN OUTPOURING OF LOGICALITY
is the "fish" pattern and its fin patterns in existence before any concrete fins or fish
THAT IS, THERE IS A CERTAIN WAY -- BASED ON THE INTERACTION OF NUMBERS OR PATTERNS -- THAT THINGS MUST TURN OUT
IT IS IN EXISTENCE AS AN IMPLICATION OF THE IDEA OF REALITY
IT MAY NOT EXIST IN CONCRETE FORM, AS IN WRITTEN DOWN SOMEWHERE IN THE STARS
BUT IT IS PART OF THAT LARGER IDEA
A FISH IS A PURELY LOGICAL DESIGN
SO IS MATTER, WHEN YOU CONSIDER A SYSTEM FOR MANIFESTING AND COMPARING PATTERNS
ok so let's say there's no concrete fish
anywhere
what's the pattern doing
Does it exist yet?
YES, BECAUSE IT IS PART OF THE IDEA OF REALITY ITSELF
IDEA IS CAUSE OF MATERIAL PATTERN
AND WITHOUT TIME AS PART OF THE EQUATION, WE CAN SEE HOW THE IDEA LEADS ITSELF NECESSARILY TO OTHER VARIATIONS
SO YES, IT IS INNATE TO THE UNIVERSE
ok so the fish idea basically floats around doing nothing for long periods of time until actual concrete relationships and circumstances happen. Then badabingbadaboom the idea of fish has a concrete instance. So the actual causal mechanism here isn't the idea.
THE CAUSAL MECHANISM IS THE IDEA
UNTIL A PATTERN EXISTS -- IN THIS CASE, THE ENVIRONMENT OF THE FISH -- THE IDEA DOES NOT HAVE AN INSTANCE
THAT WE KNOW OF AT LEAST
sup
HOWDY
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FISH
the linux shell?
NO, THE SWIMMING ANIMAL
AND ITS DESIGN
RE: PLATONISM AND GERMAN IDEALISM
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