#general (Discord ID: 267086373285134338) in Realism, page 971


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which is more or less what I was pointing out

2018-01-17 19:16:35 UTC

Roll some dice to determine the exact number of days until any 'right movement' is infested with Jews and libertarians

2018-01-17 19:16:58 UTC
2018-01-17 19:17:29 UTC

@༺པརབྱར།བསངཇ༻ I AM NOT SURE YOU ARE INCORPORATING THE NATURE OF IDEALISM INTO THAT

2018-01-17 19:17:33 UTC

i don't agree that "I am actually just pure awareness which is actually God surrounded in all this horrible swelling and churning world of desire!" is true

2018-01-17 19:17:34 UTC

MAYA IS THE IDEA OF MATERIAL DETERMINISM

Well forgetting whether or not we are undifferentiated propertyless awareness.

2018-01-17 19:17:41 UTC

nor a fair assessment of the upanishads

2018-01-17 19:17:41 UTC

THAT DENIES IMPORTANCE OF INNER WORLD AND TRANSCENDENT

what's your assessment @devolved

2018-01-17 19:18:25 UTC

**look at you nerds arguing over abstractions with consequences you cannot even act upon anyway. What have you done so far with this short day in your one short life? go make something happen**

2018-01-17 19:18:54 UTC

p sure you type more words here than anyone else

2018-01-17 19:18:59 UTC

need a wordcounter

2018-01-17 19:19:19 UTC
2018-01-17 19:19:32 UTC

being aware of the divine at all times

2018-01-17 19:19:41 UTC

externally and internally

yeah but *why*

2018-01-17 19:20:30 UTC

because it's better that way

2018-01-17 19:20:39 UTC

life is better

2018-01-17 19:20:43 UTC

BECAUSE IT IS ACCURATE

2018-01-17 19:20:51 UTC

WE CANNOT SEPARATE MAN FROM NATURE, LOGIC, AND THE DIVINE

2018-01-17 19:20:53 UTC

IN PARALLEL

then it doesn't matter. If god is everywhere then everything is just doing whatever God wants.

from the blade of grass to the tranny

2018-01-17 19:24:16 UTC

which is why god must have a will

2018-01-17 19:24:41 UTC

for it to matter

Well then he's willing to mutilate his genitals and wear high heels

2018-01-17 19:26:05 UTC

THAT WAS THE POINT SCHOPENHAUER MADE

2018-01-17 19:26:08 UTC

LIFE HAS A WILL

2018-01-17 19:26:13 UTC

THAT EXPANDS IN ALL DIRECTIONS

2018-01-17 19:26:20 UTC

CONSCIOUSNESS IS NECESSARY TO MEDIATE THIS WILL

2018-01-17 19:26:23 UTC

TO POINT IT UPWARD

Upward?

To what

He said life is will

The ground floor according to him was just non rational urging. Consciousness and later, thinking, are just grades of will so that it can better meet those urges

Of course he had his little judgement that this is all horrible and so we needed to stop existing altogether by ending craving

2018-01-17 19:30:15 UTC

everything is alive

2018-01-17 19:30:42 UTC

i think most of religion is discerning this will

2018-01-17 19:31:06 UTC

I AGREE

2018-01-17 19:31:12 UTC

UNION BETWEEN INTUITION AND THE ORDER OF NATURE

2018-01-17 19:31:14 UTC

BACK TO PLATO

2018-01-17 19:31:33 UTC

SCHOPENHAUER'S POINT ABOUT URGES WAS THE MOST PEOPLE PURSUE MATERIAL URGES LOOKING FOR MEANING

2018-01-17 19:31:36 UTC

HE DID NOT YET REALIZE

2018-01-17 19:31:40 UTC

THAT MOST OF THEM CANNOT DO OTHERWISE

it's all autism over Being. You can say there's some ground floor or whatever but if human history is anything to go by we can't make heads or tails of what that is.

2018-01-17 19:32:07 UTC

THE GUMMIES ARE JUST GOING TO ACT OUT THEIR GENETIC PROGRAM

2018-01-17 19:32:15 UTC

WHO IS "WE"?

2018-01-17 19:32:18 UTC

SOME CAN

2018-01-17 19:32:22 UTC

THE OTHERS INJECT CHAOS

You and I

2018-01-17 19:32:27 UTC

TO TRY TO JUSTIFY THEIR OWN DESIRES

2018-01-17 19:32:38 UTC

I DO NOT THINK WE ARE THAT DIVIDED, OR THAT LOST

2018-01-17 19:32:48 UTC

KEEP IN MIND THAT THERE IS A REASON RELIGION IS WRITTEN IN METAPHOR

2018-01-17 19:33:10 UTC

WE ARE NOTICING FORMS AND TENDENCIES OVER TIME, NOT TANGIBLE OBJECTS IN THE MOMENT

all you have to work with are representations made from a thin trickle of sensory data.

this is fine for navigating

but beyond that

2018-01-17 19:42:22 UTC

@༺པརབྱར།བསངཇ༻ MANY THINGS MUST REMAIN MYSTERIES

2018-01-17 19:42:26 UTC

THAT IS NOT PROBLEMATIC IN ITSELF

2018-01-17 19:42:35 UTC

AFTER ALL, WE PROBABLY WOULD NOT UNDERSTAND THEM ANYWAY

2018-01-17 19:42:42 UTC

DUNNING-KRUGER IS ALSO AN UPPER LIMIT ON THE HUMAN SPECIES

we are boat in a storm that has a little spot light at the front of it that let's us see the waves crash into each other and maybe a water spout in the distance we might want to avoid.

blah blah Dionysus

2018-01-17 19:46:17 UTC

WE ARE ALSO ABLE TO SEE PATTERNS IN THE WAVES

Blah blah Apollo

2018-01-17 19:46:30 UTC

THIS IS NOT A LIFE ALONE IN A VOID OF DATA

2018-01-17 19:46:34 UTC

WE ARE IN FACT AWASH IN IT

2018-01-17 19:46:38 UTC

THE QUESTION IS PATTERN RECOGNITION

I honestly don't even know what we are talking about at this point

2018-01-17 19:53:46 UTC

that's why I left the conversation

2018-01-17 19:53:55 UTC

I was looking at pants on amazon instead, at least that is remotely helpful to my life

We started talking about attitudes and the contents of books but our abstractions grew tentacles of their own and slithered into murky Eldritch swamps

2018-01-17 20:09:45 UTC

NOT AT ALL

2018-01-17 20:09:47 UTC

WE ARE STILL ON TOPIC

2018-01-17 20:09:51 UTC

WE ARE DISCUSSING GERMAN IDEALISM

2018-01-17 20:10:38 UTC

TRUE NATURE OF HIPPIES REVEALED

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/267086373285134338/403279973248401428/hippies.jpg

Schopenhauer took the middle way. He critiqued Berkeley and Hegel and the materialists

and materialism/idealism are just two autistically extreme polarities that only exist because folk western people decided on a mind/body divide. From there you get spirit and matter and away we go.

2018-01-17 20:19:59 UTC

NOT IN THE SCHOPENHAUERIAN VIEW

2018-01-17 20:20:01 UTC

OR THE KANTIAN

2018-01-17 20:20:08 UTC

THE DIVIDE IS NOT BODY/MIND BUT CAUSE/EFFECT

2018-01-17 20:20:11 UTC

WITH BOTH BEING IMPORTANT

2018-01-17 20:20:14 UTC

SCHOPENHAUER MAKES THIS CLEAR

2018-01-17 20:20:19 UTC

KANT IS LESS CLEAR, BUT IMPLIES IT HEAVILY

2018-01-17 20:20:32 UTC

WHAT YOU ARE CALLING IDEALISM IS ACTUALLY DUALISM

I haven't defined that yet

idealism is a monism of two options:
1) reductionist - matter is actually the result of mental activity
2) eliminativist - matter doesn't exist there's just mental stuff.

Reverse it for materialism

Dualism is like, `yo dawg there are two independent substances. Dunno how they connect.`

2018-01-17 20:23:42 UTC

YOU CONFLATE "IDEA" AND "MENTAL ACTIVITY" WHICH IS CLEARLY REJECTED

2018-01-17 20:24:07 UTC

AND IT IS NOT REDUCTIONISM PER SE TO STATE THAT CAUSE/EFFECT RELATIONSHIPS APPLY TO MATTER AND IDEA

Can we avoid semantics

Like I know you know exactly the thinking I'm trying to put into words here

By that I mean clearly stating stuff that's come up in the history of ideas

2018-01-17 20:28:18 UTC

IT IS NOT SEMANTICS TO UNDERSTAND A THEORY CORRECTLY, I WOULD THINK

2018-01-17 20:28:35 UTC

DUALISM POSITS A SEPARATION BETWEEN MATERIAL AND IDEA

yeah

2018-01-17 20:28:42 UTC

IDEALISM PRESENTS A UNIFIED NOTION, IS THAT CORRECT?

2018-01-17 20:28:59 UTC

(I AM NOT TRYING TO RUN YOU DOWN HERE. AS I TOLD SEXILARCH, THIS IS A FRIENDLY CONVERSATION.)

2018-01-17 20:29:08 UTC

(AND PEOPLE CAN FEEL FREE TO DISAGREE.)

There are two types of idealism

Oh I'm not upset

Or frustrated even

Just trying to lay out some background and context before even getting to schopenhauer

2018-01-17 20:32:37 UTC

Are platonic forms dualism then

kinda outta scope since that theory came outta a different culture with a different set of folk assumptions

I mean obviously if you've read WWR platonism is mentioned

2018-01-17 20:35:08 UTC

Ur a folk

And kinda synthesized

2018-01-17 20:35:26 UTC
2018-01-17 20:35:43 UTC

Since I never understood what he meant by dualism

Oh

2018-01-17 20:36:31 UTC

@devolved NO, BECAUSE THEY ARE MORE IN LINE WITH DUALISM

2018-01-17 20:36:42 UTC

PLATONIC FORMS POSIT AN UNDERLYING ORDER TO THIS WORLD, NOT A SEPARATE WORLD

2018-01-17 20:36:57 UTC

THIS GETS DIFFICULT BECAUSE THERE ARE POTENTIALLY ADDITIONAL DIMENSIONS OR LAYERS TO THIS WORLD

2018-01-17 20:36:59 UTC

BUT UNLIKE DUALISM

2018-01-17 20:37:04 UTC

THE RULES ARE NOT DIFERENT

2018-01-17 20:37:10 UTC

THE TWO WORLDS ARE DIRECTLY JOINED

how do you personally join them

Like there's basically zero cause and effect relationship between Fingerness and the five digits protruding from my palm.

2018-01-17 20:47:03 UTC

Not finish with this thread but it is a good read.
https://twitter.com/Freyaslight/status/953437362499047424

2018-01-17 20:48:46 UTC

God bless Texas

2018-01-17 21:11:25 UTC

@༺པརབྱར།བསངཇ༻ ACTUALLY, THE CORE OF THE ARGUMENT IS THAT THERE IS

2018-01-17 21:11:28 UTC

FINGERNESS IS NOT A MATERIAL

2018-01-17 21:11:35 UTC

IT IS A PATTERN (OUR WORD FOR "FORM")

What's the causal link between the immaterial form and the material object

Yours that is

2018-01-17 21:20:03 UTC

THE MATHEMATICS OF PATTERN

2018-01-17 21:20:10 UTC

A FINGER IS A SHAPE DESIGNED FOR A SERIES OF FUNCTIONS

2018-01-17 21:20:29 UTC

THIS IS DETERMINED BY INTERACTIONS BETWEEN ITS PARTS AND THE OBJECTS ON WHICH IT ACTS

2018-01-17 21:20:43 UTC

THUS ITS ESSENCE IS STRUCTURAL, OR INFORMATIONAL, NOT MATERIAL, OR RELATED TO WHAT IT IS MADE OF

2018-01-17 21:20:51 UTC

FOR EXAMPLE, WE CAN MAKE REASONABLY ACCURATE ROBOTIC FINGERS

2018-01-17 21:20:54 UTC

THEY EXHIBIT FINGERNESS

2018-01-17 21:21:06 UTC

PHILOSOPHERS TEND TO USE THE CHAIR AS AN EXAMPLE BECAUSE IT IS THE SIMPLEST POSSIBLE CHOICE

2018-01-17 21:21:13 UTC

ANYTHING WITH SUPPORT PLUS A BACK IS A CHAIR

2018-01-17 21:21:21 UTC

NAIL A BOARD TO A STUMP AND IT WORKS JUST AS WELL

2018-01-17 21:21:33 UTC

PLATO POSITS AN INFORMATIONAL CAUSE/EFFECT RELATIONSHIP

So the pattern exists prior right

2018-01-17 21:21:54 UTC

THAT IS: THE DEMANDS OF THE SITUATION DETERMINE WHAT FILLS IT

2018-01-17 21:22:06 UTC

THE PATTERN "EXISTS" IN THE FORMS OF THE MATHEMATICS OF THE UNIVERSE

2018-01-17 21:22:15 UTC

IT IS LOGICAL THAT CHAIRNESS WILL BE THERE

2018-01-17 21:22:25 UTC

FOR THIS REASON, THERE IS AN INFORMATIONAL SUBSTRATE TO THE UNIVERSE

2018-01-17 21:22:41 UTC

AND THEREFORE, THOUGHTS INFLUENCE MATTER (CF. HERMETICISM) MUCHAS DEEDS DO

2018-01-17 21:22:50 UTC

BUT WHAT MATTERS IN THE LONG TERM

2018-01-17 21:22:58 UTC

IS HOW WE USE PHYSICALITY TO INFLUENCE THE PATTERNS AROUND US

2018-01-17 21:23:04 UTC

I.E. WHAT IS ACHIEVED IN AN IDEALISTIC SENSE

THAT IS: THE DEMANDS OF THE SITUATION DETERMINE WHAT FILLS IT
THE PATTERN "EXISTS" IN THE FORMS OF THE MATHEMATICS OF THE UNIVERSE

Can you detail this out

these*

maybe with just an example

2018-01-17 21:27:27 UTC

CONSIDER THE FORM OF A FISH

2018-01-17 21:27:38 UTC

WE KNOW THE NATURE OF PLANETS AND THE NATURE OF WATER

Better

2018-01-17 21:27:50 UTC

FOR LIFE TO SURVIVE IN WATER, IT MUST HAVE A FORM ADAPTED TO WATER

2018-01-17 21:27:57 UTC

NAMELY, PROPULSION IS NOT LEGS (LOL)

2018-01-17 21:28:10 UTC

SO YOU CAN IMAGINE THE SIMPLEST POSSIBLE FORM WOULD BE A FLIPPER WITH A HEAD

2018-01-17 21:28:19 UTC

THEN, BECAUSE IT WILL NEED STABILITY AND STEERING, IT HAS FINS

2018-01-17 21:28:30 UTC

ONE COULD ALSO USE THE EYE AS AN EXAMPLE

2018-01-17 21:28:39 UTC

IN A WORLD WHERE VISION IS THE MOST EFFICIENT WAY TO ACCURATE ASSESS SURROUNDINGS

2018-01-17 21:28:44 UTC

YOU NEED SOMETHING LIKE A LITTLE CAMERA

2018-01-17 21:28:51 UTC

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/267086373285134338/403299656416624640/1455907481108.gif

2018-01-17 21:28:56 UTC

It's not good to start from that direction and work backward

2018-01-17 21:29:03 UTC

It assumes that what happened had to happen and was the only way

2018-01-17 21:29:09 UTC

NOT NECESSARILY

2018-01-17 21:29:16 UTC

BECAUSE WE ARE NOT LOOKING AT CAUSALITY

2018-01-17 21:29:19 UTC

BUT DEMANDS OF CONTEXT

2018-01-17 21:29:27 UTC

DESIGN AN ANIMAL TO SWIM THROUGH WATER

2018-01-17 21:29:36 UTC

DESIGNS WILL CONVERGE ON FISH SHAPES WHEN EFFICIENCY IS REQUIRED

2018-01-17 21:29:41 UTC

For a long time, there was no species which occupied the human niche

2018-01-17 21:29:48 UTC

E.G. I CAN ENVISION SOMETHING THAT SWIMS WITH TEN THOUSAND HANDS BUT

2018-01-17 21:29:51 UTC

THAT IS NOT VERY EFFICIENT

2018-01-17 21:29:52 UTC

There may yet be forms that haven't been seen

2018-01-17 21:29:55 UTC

TO USE OR TO REPRODUCE

2018-01-17 21:30:00 UTC

THERE MAY BE OTHER FORMS

2018-01-17 21:30:01 UTC

And possibilities that could have been

2018-01-17 21:30:04 UTC

THERE IS MORE THAN ONE WAY TO DO ANYTHING

2018-01-17 21:30:05 UTC

BUT

2018-01-17 21:30:08 UTC

A FISH IS THE SIMPLEST

2018-01-17 21:30:14 UTC

SO IT IS INEVITABLE THAT SOMETHING LIKE IT WILL EXIST

2018-01-17 21:30:18 UTC

IN THAT ENVIRONMENT

so your theory is that forms are basically emergent out of concrete relationships and certain demands

2018-01-17 21:30:42 UTC

IF WE CHANGE FACTORS OF THAT ENVIRONMENT, THE DESIGN MAY CHANGE (FOR EXAMPLE, GRAVITY)

2018-01-17 21:30:49 UTC

FORMS ARE EMERGENT FROM DESIGNS

2018-01-17 21:30:55 UTC

GRAVITY IS AN IDEA, A DESIGN

2018-01-17 21:31:00 UTC

IN INTERACTION WITH OTHER IDEAS

2018-01-17 21:31:04 UTC

IT PRODUCES A LIMITED SET OF ANSWERS

what are ideas specifically

2018-01-17 21:31:16 UTC

I agree with your sentiment, but nature's code is a black box and we only see the results of it being boilerplated

2018-01-17 21:31:17 UTC

AND WHEN WE IMPOSE OTHER CRITERIA (EFFICIENCY, SURVIVABILITY)

2018-01-17 21:31:25 UTC

THEN THE FIELD NARROWS FURTHER

2018-01-17 21:31:32 UTC

I agree with your sentiment, but nature's code is a black box and we only see the result of it being boilerplated

2018-01-17 21:31:34 UTC

IDEAS ARE CAUSAL PATTERNS

2018-01-17 21:31:48 UTC

OF COURSE, @Hagel, WHICH IS WHY WE MUST USE ANALYSIS

2018-01-17 21:31:52 UTC

AND COMPARE PATTERNS AND KNOWLEDGE

2018-01-17 21:31:56 UTC

AND LOOK TOWARD OUR INTUITION

2018-01-17 21:32:00 UTC

WHICH IS SHAPED BY OUR OWN PATTERNING.

where do ideas come from

2018-01-17 21:32:21 UTC

^^^ SHE IS WAY TOO MASCULINE

2018-01-17 21:32:27 UTC

IDEAS ARE THE STRUCTURE OF THE UNIVERSE

Or where do the patterns come from

2018-01-17 21:32:33 UTC

CLEARLY THEY EXIST

2018-01-17 21:32:38 UTC

BUT WE USUALLY CONFUSE THEM FOR THEIR MANIFESTATION

I'm just asking questions right now

2018-01-17 21:32:48 UTC

IF WE VIEW THE UNIVERSE AS AN IDEA

2018-01-17 21:32:50 UTC

Oh hi

2018-01-17 21:32:51 UTC

WITH SOME PROPERTIES

2018-01-17 21:33:00 UTC

What's going on, guys?

2018-01-17 21:33:00 UTC

THEN OTHER PROPERTIES EMERGE FROM THE INTERACTION OF THOSE

2018-01-17 21:33:05 UTC
2018-01-17 21:33:14 UTC

WE'RE GETTING DRUNK AND TALKING PLATONISM

2018-01-17 21:33:21 UTC

lol

2018-01-17 21:33:29 UTC

Uuuuuh

2018-01-17 21:33:33 UTC

Atlantis....?

2018-01-17 21:33:47 UTC

I haven't been taught this stuff yet guys, I'm trying

Does the structure change or is every idea always "out there*

2018-01-17 21:34:12 UTC

I don't start Philosophy until this and the following course pass

2018-01-17 21:34:25 UTC

HMM, WELL, HANG IN THERE

2018-01-17 21:34:32 UTC

WE WILL EITHER LIBERATE YOUR MIND OR MAKE YOU FAIL THE COURSE

2018-01-17 21:34:46 UTC

@༺པརབྱར།བསངཇ༻ THE IDEA IS INHERENT TO THE COMPOSITION OF THE UNIVERSE

2018-01-17 21:34:51 UTC

WHICH ITSELF IS AN OUTPOURING OF LOGICALITY

is the "fish" pattern and its fin patterns in existence before any concrete fins or fish

2018-01-17 21:35:13 UTC

THAT IS, THERE IS A CERTAIN WAY -- BASED ON THE INTERACTION OF NUMBERS OR PATTERNS -- THAT THINGS MUST TURN OUT

2018-01-17 21:35:31 UTC

IT IS IN EXISTENCE AS AN IMPLICATION OF THE IDEA OF REALITY

2018-01-17 21:35:43 UTC

IT MAY NOT EXIST IN CONCRETE FORM, AS IN WRITTEN DOWN SOMEWHERE IN THE STARS

2018-01-17 21:35:48 UTC

BUT IT IS PART OF THAT LARGER IDEA

2018-01-17 21:35:52 UTC

A FISH IS A PURELY LOGICAL DESIGN

2018-01-17 21:36:02 UTC

SO IS MATTER, WHEN YOU CONSIDER A SYSTEM FOR MANIFESTING AND COMPARING PATTERNS

ok so let's say there's no concrete fish

anywhere

what's the pattern doing

Does it exist yet?

2018-01-17 21:39:25 UTC

YES, BECAUSE IT IS PART OF THE IDEA OF REALITY ITSELF

2018-01-17 21:39:33 UTC

IDEA IS CAUSE OF MATERIAL PATTERN

2018-01-17 21:39:53 UTC

AND WITHOUT TIME AS PART OF THE EQUATION, WE CAN SEE HOW THE IDEA LEADS ITSELF NECESSARILY TO OTHER VARIATIONS

2018-01-17 21:39:59 UTC

SO YES, IT IS INNATE TO THE UNIVERSE

ok so the fish idea basically floats around doing nothing for long periods of time until actual concrete relationships and circumstances happen. Then badabingbadaboom the idea of fish has a concrete instance. So the actual causal mechanism here isn't the idea.

2018-01-17 21:42:45 UTC

THE CAUSAL MECHANISM IS THE IDEA

2018-01-17 21:42:57 UTC

UNTIL A PATTERN EXISTS -- IN THIS CASE, THE ENVIRONMENT OF THE FISH -- THE IDEA DOES NOT HAVE AN INSTANCE

2018-01-17 21:43:01 UTC

THAT WE KNOW OF AT LEAST

2018-01-17 21:44:11 UTC

sup

2018-01-17 21:44:17 UTC

HOWDY

2018-01-17 21:44:21 UTC

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FISH

2018-01-17 21:44:46 UTC

the linux shell?

2018-01-17 21:46:22 UTC

NO, THE SWIMMING ANIMAL

2018-01-17 21:46:24 UTC

AND ITS DESIGN

2018-01-17 21:46:29 UTC

RE: PLATONISM AND GERMAN IDEALISM

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