would you rob the supermarket without laws?

many would

cops are people too

not just government employees

no, would *you* rob the supermarket

The supermarket?

Let's see

depends on the supermarket

lol

probably not

i dunno

The food that arrives there travels by trade routes secured by the American military and navy

The government built the highways which carry the food to my supermarket

The supermarket stays in business because it knows that even if it is robbed it can go to the proper authorities

the problem with your argument is that you think that these things cant exist without government

I don't think that international trade routes can exist without government

just because our world functions through violence and coercion right now, doesnt mean it cant function without it

many people didnt think men could land on the moon either

again, youre equating probability with possibility

it cant

prove it?

thats like saying disprove god

but we can make statement of relative degrees of certainty

The fact hthat violence has always been a part of human civilization suggests it will probably always continue to be so

like we can show that almost every civilization had a state by which violence was used as a force to instill order

again, that doesnt cancel the posibility of self governance without a state

You can't compare "technological innovation" to "social order"

They're not the same thing

they arent

like dravidian civilizations barely had a military but they still had a force to instill order

but you cant use a longstanding trend to prove the status quo will remain that way

yeah but they suggesting it wont with little evidence is basically insane

im not saying that it wont

im saying that its possible that it might not

Of course it's possible

Who would deny that it's possible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY9VE3i-KcM

What I'm denying is that you can ever get to that point

isnt that the same thing?

the supermarket shipping thing reminded me of this video

seen it

Container ships are amazing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcom_McLean

All pay respect to the inventor of the shipping container

the only two stroke engine that deserves to exist is diesel two strokes used in ships

imo

but yeah, arguing on the basis of the status quo doesnt really make sense because things can and do change all the time

All I asked for was one example

changes occur in predictive patterns

and i dont have any

because it would be a first in human history

but a lot of things were firsts in human history

so whats your point?

like change occurring doesnt mean that the state of reality just magically shifts

a car was never in space before

doesnt deny its possibility

Again

Technology != social order

but its the same thing

You can change our material conditions

Not our human nature

yeah but were talking about having a civilization without a state

in terms of argument

social order changes all the time

look at the roman civilization

it lasted for *centuries*

and a car been thrust into space isnt an unpredictable change

About two thousand years, yeah

and things have changed so much in only a few of those

yes but it just gave away to smaller states

And what was the Romans' most important contribution to the West?

The state

yeah romans refined statecraft

but the fact is it *fell*

and?

it feel and gave way to more states

Senate got the ruler killed

the change ancom would make would be equivalent to the fall of the roman empire, in terms of *probability* according to your argument

civilizations being coupled with a state that derives all its authority from violence is something that has existed in all of history

in fact, it would be even more probable

So I dunno

seeing as the empire lasted thousands of years

whats unlikely is a civilization existing without state entities

but again, history has changed

yes but this is a different type of change

`the change ancom would make would be equivalent to the fall of the roman empire`

so?

So ancom would make life drastically worse

its like me comparing a change in the color of the shirt you wear on one day to the next

as the color of the Sun turning black

i didnt establish an equivalency based on the exact change, just on its likelihood, arguing from your point

its simply unlikely

okay

picture this

a social institution existing for 2 thousand years

how likely is something so stable to change?

how do you define state entities

and being replaced by other institutions that operate on a similar basis

do you mean just hierarchies or centralized governance

no no no