@.....

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2018-12-31 05:40:31 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

There are lots of real ancaps

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2018-12-31 05:41:18 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

This

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2018-12-31 05:42:37 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

But it's all supported by governance

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2018-12-31 05:44:29 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

You're taking the behavior of people who live in orderly, governed societies, and saying that behavior would be replicated in societies without orderly government

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2018-12-31 05:45:50 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Which civilization occurred without a central power

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2018-12-31 05:46:13 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Such as

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2018-12-31 05:46:19 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Google some if you want

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2018-12-31 05:46:25 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Then how do you know they exist

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2018-12-31 05:46:38 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Nothing is impossible

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2018-12-31 05:46:44 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Just very improbable

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2018-12-31 05:47:32 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

I'm just curious about examples here

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2018-12-31 05:47:47 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

I can think of some societies off the top of my head that lacked central government

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2018-12-31 05:47:50 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Medieval Ireland

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2018-12-31 05:47:55 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

The Icelandic Commonwealth

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2018-12-31 05:48:13 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Some pre-Roman Germanic tribes

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2018-12-31 05:52:45 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

I would say precedent is a very solid determinant of if something will work or not, but fine, we can avoid that topic for now

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2018-12-31 05:52:49 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

How would you accomplish your ultimate goal

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2018-12-31 05:54:07 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Certainly

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2018-12-31 05:55:24 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

I think that something like Bittorent which allows people to share files is different from the exercise of power

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2018-12-31 05:56:28 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Sure

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2018-12-31 05:56:37 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

It's also used for sharing terrible content like child porn

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2018-12-31 05:57:33 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

As far as I'm concerned, giving up certain freedoms in exchange for other freedoms is a worthy trade

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2018-12-31 05:59:38 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Yes, but we still use encryption because it makes it harder for hackers

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2018-12-31 05:59:54 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

We still put locks on our doors even though it takes one rock to smash a window

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2018-12-31 06:00:10 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

We have security not because it'll stop every single criminal

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2018-12-31 06:00:22 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

It's a means of deterrence

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2018-12-31 06:00:31 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

It's the same reason we punish criminals

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2018-12-31 06:00:41 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

We want people to not want to commit crimes

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2018-12-31 06:01:16 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

"Most of the time"

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2018-12-31 06:01:22 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

The majority of people don't use illegal drugs

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2018-12-31 06:02:14 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

No, I stay away from drugs because I'm deeply uncomfortable with intoxication

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2018-12-31 06:02:40 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

The point of the law isn't to catch every criminal

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2018-12-31 06:02:48 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

It's to make those who would otherwise do it consequence-free think again

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2018-12-31 06:05:59 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

The set of reciprocal responsibilities each citizen obliges to another in a state

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2018-12-31 06:06:09 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

"I will not murder you if you don't murder me"

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2018-12-31 06:06:15 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

And then, the "right to life" is created

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2018-12-31 06:06:21 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

You didn't voluntarily

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2018-12-31 06:08:45 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

`where does the authority of the government come from?`

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2018-12-31 06:08:47 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Violence

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2018-12-31 06:09:02 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

The authority of government is derived from the fact that they maintain a functioning social order

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2018-12-31 06:09:05 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

It's the Mandate of Heaven

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2018-12-31 06:09:15 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

^

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2018-12-31 06:12:00 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

The supermarket?

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2018-12-31 06:12:01 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Let's see

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2018-12-31 06:12:18 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

The food that arrives there travels by trade routes secured by the American military and navy

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2018-12-31 06:12:29 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

The government built the highways which carry the food to my supermarket

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2018-12-31 06:12:55 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

The supermarket stays in business because it knows that even if it is robbed it can go to the proper authorities

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2018-12-31 06:13:24 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

I don't think that international trade routes can exist without government

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2018-12-31 06:14:54 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

The fact hthat violence has always been a part of human civilization suggests it will probably always continue to be so

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2018-12-31 06:15:44 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

You can't compare "technological innovation" to "social order"

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2018-12-31 06:15:46 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

They're not the same thing

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2018-12-31 06:17:16 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Of course it's possible

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2018-12-31 06:17:26 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Who would deny that it's possible

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2018-12-31 06:17:38 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

What I'm denying is that you can ever get to that point

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2018-12-31 06:18:27 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Container ships are amazing

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2018-12-31 06:18:44 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcom_McLean

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2018-12-31 06:18:52 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

All pay respect to the inventor of the shipping container

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2018-12-31 06:19:22 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

All I asked for was one example

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2018-12-31 06:20:14 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Again

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2018-12-31 06:20:20 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Technology != social order

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2018-12-31 06:20:30 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

You can change our material conditions

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2018-12-31 06:20:32 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Not our human nature

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2018-12-31 06:21:08 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

About two thousand years, yeah

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2018-12-31 06:21:19 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

And what was the Romans' most important contribution to the West?

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2018-12-31 06:21:21 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

The state

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2018-12-31 06:23:07 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

`the change ancom would make would be equivalent to the fall of the roman empire`

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2018-12-31 06:23:13 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

So ancom would make life drastically worse

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2018-12-31 06:25:10 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Well, it wasn't stable

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2018-12-31 06:25:11 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

It changed a lot

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2018-12-31 06:25:16 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Went through periods of instability

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2018-12-31 06:33:54 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Precedent

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2018-12-31 06:34:36 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

If they're disciplined, well-behaved children

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2018-12-31 06:34:41 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Lots of kids won't do it if you ask nicely

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2018-12-31 06:37:15 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

`and ive seen opposite` as have I

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2018-12-31 06:37:39 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Lots of anarchists and libertarians essentially believe in the idea of the "better angels of our nature"

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2018-12-31 06:37:45 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

That there truly is a real moral sentiment in humans

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2018-12-31 06:37:47 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

But there isn't

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2018-12-31 06:37:50 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

We're just animals

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2018-12-31 06:38:32 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Spontaneous order does exist

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2018-12-31 06:38:36 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

That's true

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2018-12-31 06:39:06 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Some people do

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2018-12-31 06:39:14 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

And some don't

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2018-12-31 06:39:19 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Some become more violent

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2018-12-31 06:39:29 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Some use the opportunity to rob others or to commit violence

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2018-12-31 06:39:39 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Absolutely not

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2018-12-31 06:40:02 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

But what about all the crimes that happen during disasters

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2018-12-31 06:42:20 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Precedent is a great way to establish an argument

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2018-12-31 06:46:13 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

One example does not prove something true

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2018-12-31 06:46:36 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

I can also list plenty of examples of disasters which spawned crime

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2018-12-31 06:47:33 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Not all people are actually violent, but there is a portion of the population which will behave in anti-social ways

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2018-12-31 06:48:40 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

The threat of violence isn't necessary in family and friendships but is necessary to bring together peoples who have no natural connection

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2018-12-31 06:52:07 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Oh, joy

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2018-12-31 06:57:38 UTC [Rhetoric™ #voice-related]

This sounds very utopian CL

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2018-12-31 06:58:03 UTC [Rhetoric™ #voice-related]

You're basically stating that your technolical utopia is inevitable, but you know it can't come about except through more specialized labor in the near future

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2018-12-31 07:01:32 UTC [Rhetoric™ #voice-related]

Yeah, it was a good show

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2018-12-31 07:01:50 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

Alright

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2018-12-31 07:01:58 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

My mic is broken

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2018-12-31 07:02:28 UTC [Rhetoric™ #general]

But like Lyoko my folks and sister are asleep and it's a small house, so I can't go on my phone