The degree to which the Left is collectivized is Borg-like.

We shouldn't do that.

Well, that's why we are always on the defensive.

So to rephrase your point, we need to start speaking up, speaking out, facing down bullshit where we see it unafraid, and stick up for one another.

We are too often atomized.

There was one other conservative in this thread. I was running backup.

so I think the distiction needs to be made

between forming orgs and the like
and collectivism

The subthread that got me banished, the one I linked, was all me.

because I see the two getting used interchangeably a lot

Look what's happening all over the place:

They have their mobs, they roll over one of us, as soon as they speak up.

And who stands up to defend them?

you form a group on the basis of individualist principles, you fight for those principles

How many of Petersons colleagues stood up?

you know, like the United States

I am telling you: we are too atomized.

If you believe in something, stand up for it.

Take note: The arguments that this guy was using against me were all regurgitated lines assumed to be true.

They will keep rolling over us until we had that lesson driven into us.

THAT is what collectivism does.

Beeman is right in his distinction.

Yes, and that is the saddest part:

They are regurgitated, but if they are regurgitated by enough people, without the same scale of pushback, they are unchallenged and often are assumed to be true.

It needs to be less borglike and more like that old hands-in-a-circle meme

We do not have the same degree of solidarity and that is one of our weaknesses.

Why do we WANT that degree of solidarity?

Look around.

I brought up Keith Ellison in another subthread, and they discarded it as irrelevant to Kavanaugh's case.

I look around and I see tribes.

I do not want solidarity purely for the sake of solidarity.

We won't solve tribalism with more tribalism.

I want solidarity around principles and ideals.

That is what used to make us strong and righteous.

The problem with a social movement like Feminism or Black Lives Matter is that there is no end, there's no point where you say 'job done' and dissolve.

^^^

Yes, because it is not for the sake of an ideal.

It is for the sake of an identity.

right, so you win by not playing that game

^ ^ ^

(it's happening!)

Sorry, but you can't quit the game of laws and state.

If we could just walk away from that, there would be no issue. But we can't.

I can't just opt out from having to feed myself.

I cannot opt out of hate speech laws.

But the solution can't be to just mimic what we see

We see them tribally defending one another without regard to truth...

I never said we should mimic it.

There was a fundamental distinction I made.

it's not the game of laws and state though

Politics is downstream from Culture.

If you're trying to win the game on politics, you're playing it wrong.

Marxists are very clearly *not* playing the game of laws and state

Then when are we going to start playing the culture game?

And if you're trying to build a culture to directly mirror the ridiculousness on the other side

they are playing "by any means necessary"

you're double-wrong.

one might even say double-plus-wrong, comrade

Or should we keep up our losing streak there, too, for refusal to do what is effective?

we actually win by playing the game of "American Values"

even for those of us who aren't American

American Values for the win

Yes.

Maybe we should rally around those values for a change.

so how do we then break that down?

Get more people to speak up by protecting them from the SJW mob.

I don't feel like we're straight up on a losing streak right now.

I think Peterson actually has the right trajectory- we focus on self stability and work outwards

Personal connections + a large amount of people simply talking and willing to still be cool despite disagreeing.

Maybe a few phyrric victories here and there

Their mobs are their strongest weapon - once that is no longer effective, they lost.

yeah I think Trump is offering you a nice safe span of time to get set up

Internet kills mobs because accountability and doxxing

You can rally around values without being collectivist.

Following the scientific method does not make chemists Marxist.

I would say, keep politically active, but worry less about the media blitz and more about keeping alternative channels open

I think that is a fundamental mischaracterization.

@Beemann Agreed

that distinction was already made, @Undead Mockingbird

but the one thing being stated is that by no means is the solution to fight back along the same lines

Employers need to sack up before we can progress.

"Oh noooo... You're being maligned. Get awayyyyy!! >A<"

Employers will "sack up" when there's social pressure for them to do so

"G-get away from meeeee!"

Then I don't understand why what I said earlier was interpreted to imply we should replace one form of collectivism with another, simply for showing some solidarity in public.

Just imagine Smee's voice, as the voice of all employers

you cant just reee at them and expect progress

it depends on what you mean by "solidarity in public"

Lindsay Graham has been a fantastic boi.

I'd never heard of him, but apparently he was very unpopular until now.

He was on the never-trump train

I feel like what I am sayng keeps being made into a strawman - when, for heaven's sake, did I say we should ree at them?

he's on board now

but they've finally come around.

I was responding to Scrib

Oh lord isn't he.

Solidarity doesn't have to mean blindly accepting that which you disagree with. You can and should call out your own side if they do some stupid shit.

'Maybe we should throw him in water, see if he floats?'

```Employers will "sack up" when there's social pressure for them to do so```

I brought up a very concrete example, that of Jordan Peterson.

Social pressure is what they need to SACK UP against.

How is growing a spine and getting your balls out of your purse being collectivist?