Rule #1: Do not talk to the police

EVER

That was Kyle's first mistake, not immediately requesting a lawyer

I understand that emotions run high and he just wanted to explain himself, but you never...ever...under any circumstances...talk to the police.

@Neph (Nec) / Krystaps (War) https://youtu.be/WBy9L0gcqGY?t=43

all due respect to the venerable Mr. Ayoob...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

> Rule #1: Do not talk to the police
@Neph (Nec) / Krystaps (War)

I don't think that Kyle was raised to have a healthy skepticism of police.

Yea, he wasn't.

But when you're on the other end of the system, well

@Neph (Nec) / Krystaps (War) I am aware of that argument.

you have to protect yoursellf

im not sure you are protecting yourself by not telling the police the guy you defended yourself against had 3 buddies who just fled in a BMW

The reasoning is that anything you say can be used against you. It can never be used FOR you, but it can be used against you. And even if you are absolutely positively telling the truth, there is no way that you can know that you haven't said anything that can be used to implicate you in something

That is the basics, yes.

In this politically charged atmosphere, it is tricky.

If you shoot a guy in self defense, and his buddy picks up the weapon and just stands by the gas pump 50 feet away waiting for the police to arrive to watch you get arrested, not pointing out to the LEO that the weapon your opponent just had might be in the pocket of the blue over black standing in the crowd, might seem like a bad idea.

That may be, but that is far and away not similar to what we are talking about here

which is being in an interrogation room with a police officer

I did not catch that context. You just said: "Rule #1: Do not talk to the police
EVER"

are you changing the scene?

Even then, how does that help you?

The police would have to build a case against you

It helps you because if you point out the blue over black, and the LEO walks over and aquires the firearm that was just in the possession of the man you shot, it can change the case somewhat.

If you do not, it looks like you just shot an unarmed man.

doesn't matter what you know. it matters what you can prove

how does the LEO know that the guy's firearm in his buddy's pocket is the guy's firearm anyway?

i just don't see that helping you

ok

MAYBE it can

but...

well, I tried.

either way, the likelihood that speaking to a police officer about your guilt/innocence in a manner that will actually help you is astronomically low compared to the likelihood that it will help them build a case agaisnt you

long story short: i'd rather get arrested and give them nothing than probably still get arrested anyway and potentially give them something with which to convict me

I think you guys as are talking past eachother

When he says "never talk to the police" it isn't literal

@Doc you taking it too literal

A. Of course you tell the police if there is another shooter at large

B. Of course you call the police if you killed someone in self defense

Then you need to talk to the police.

C. Of course you point out evidence on the ground or wherever if the police miss it

then you would need to acquire the cooperation of the police.

that takes communication.

So now the "dont talk to the police -EVER" rule seems to be less of a rule, right?

Yes if you are amelia bedilia

It is a short rule that has exceptions you are supposed to educate yourself on

I know a better rule: "If you act as your own defense, your client is an idiot."

You are now being intentionally obtuse. I never meant "don't say hi to police"

the context is

the police suspect you or want to question you

you do not answer questions without counsel present

point blank period

If you don't educate yourself on the exceptions, then it is a great rule because you will destroy yourself worse than shutting up if you aren't educated

so not EVER, just not when questioned

oh ffs

yea you can walk down the street and say "good afternoon, officer"

therefore you can say that my point is mute saying "don't ever talk to the police"

moot*

Ayoob and. Branca recommend literally training and rehearsing a list of things to say

Because under that kind of pressure nearly everyone messes up

After a gunfight and the adrenaline dump that comes with it, I wouldn't trust myself to remember a perfectly rehearsed statement and stick to it

yea

but specifically when accused of a crime, is telling the cops "she came at me with a knife!" wrong, even though you are technically giving them a statement?

If you didn't train then you are probably going to hurt yourself more than help yourself

yea

@Doc when accused just shut up

If you failed to report it first you are screwed

@realz I have seen people land themselves verdicts that way.

i'd rather look guilty and not give them anything which with to prove it, than try to come off as innocent only to unintentionally give them the noose with which to hang me in court

The cops will not be able to help you by telling what you said

They can only hurt you

they failed to inform the cops of the way the incident went down, and evidence was lost. Not due to the cops malice, but because they did not now what to secure.

Very sad.

Because people followed the advice "do not talk to the cops."

Ok well yes you should stick around and make sure all evidence is collected but not get into detail of the evidence

While I respect Mr. Ayoob, he has never had to defend anyone in court. I, respectfully, will take a defense attorney's advice over his in this instance

It is more sad when they give testimony about only the bad things you said

And can't tell the good things you said

This seems complicated.

Strange that a simple rule would be the solution.

The simple rule would save most attorneys most cases

right

the simple rule is one of those rules of thumb. Is there a 0.1% instance that giving a limited statement to the police might somewhat help?

Maybe

Educated people can learn the exceptions

@realz Are you aware of the selection bias there?

but there's a 99.9% chance that giving statements will hurt you in the long run

How did you calculate that number?

For murder there would be no selection bias

like i said, you're being intentionally obtuse and contrarian here. It's not a literal statistic.

Most people get that lawyer regardless

yes there would. Would you like me to explain, @realz ?

They are almost always arrested regardless

Sure

Good attorneys see cases where their clients, usually important clients used to sweet talking, have tried to talk their way out, and have in fact talked their way in.

Therefore, their position is "shut up".

Now, if I had mr Gruler esq to represent me, and a legal team of experts behind him, that sounds like good advice.

But if all I can afford is some grade D public defender, then I am pretty much at the mercy of the police investigation.

The grade D public defenders rarely give speeches.

I see this time and time again, that evidence is lost because police did not look in the right direction. Sometimes because they are incompetent. Sometimes because they jump to conclusions and some times because the suspected failed to cooperate.