Message from @Dubbi

Discord ID: 410431889661231104

2018-02-06 13:40:25 UTC  

try to live outside of society

2018-02-06 13:40:31 UTC  

and see if it doesn't constitute an offence

2018-02-06 13:41:31 UTC  

try to - say - take possession of property. what if the collective don't consent? you have no property

2018-02-06 13:42:03 UTC  

otherwise what you do in taking property is an offence against an individual, or society

2018-02-06 13:42:31 UTC  

you have no rights unless the collective *allow* you to have those rights

2018-02-06 13:43:47 UTC  

the social contract is imposed upon you

2018-02-06 13:43:55 UTC  

Uh yeah obviously the collective oppressed people. That's why I'm against all forms of collectivism, including socialism and socialized healthcare

2018-02-06 13:44:49 UTC  

what I'm saying is that not living in a collective is not an option

2018-02-06 13:45:18 UTC  

you can be as opposed as you like, your rights are contingent upon the consent of the collective

2018-02-06 13:45:24 UTC  

in whatever type of society

2018-02-06 13:47:02 UTC  

Not in a libertarian society where everyone consents to the law (for children implied consent until they can make their own choices) if you don't consent you can leave

2018-02-06 13:47:13 UTC  


2018-02-06 13:47:17 UTC  


2018-02-06 13:47:55 UTC  

ok, so let's say you have a libertarian society where it's determined everyone gets their own slice of land except you, and everyone agrees to the way it's divided up (except you, obviously)

2018-02-06 13:47:57 UTC  

where do you go?

2018-02-06 13:48:12 UTC  

you have nowhere to go *to*

2018-02-06 13:48:26 UTC  

you can try and take some land for yourself

2018-02-06 13:48:33 UTC  

but then that's an offence agains the collective, or an idividual

2018-02-06 13:49:19 UTC  

how do you justify an offence against an individual?

2018-02-06 13:49:35 UTC  

The libertarian society would support private property

2018-02-06 13:49:47 UTC  

Through hard hard you could purchase land

2018-02-06 13:50:43 UTC  

so you're suggesting the collective would organise society in such a way that the individual comes first...

2018-02-06 13:50:58 UTC  

...then there is no collective

2018-02-06 13:51:12 UTC  

or there is no individual

2018-02-06 13:51:13 UTC  

it's a paradox

2018-02-06 13:51:40 UTC  

the collective is still determining the right sof the individual in this situation

2018-02-06 13:51:55 UTC  

it's not a contract you can bow out of

2018-02-06 13:52:38 UTC  

A collective is a philosophical concept. What matters is not giving such a concept legal power to oppress individuals in such a matter that can't be justified by consent from the start

2018-02-06 13:53:25 UTC  

that feels like you'tre changing the goalposts somewhat. my point was that you have no choice but to live in a collective

2018-02-06 13:53:37 UTC  

you can have degrees of individualism/collectivism

2018-02-06 13:54:15 UTC  

giving birth is immmoral and ultimately colllectivist. A baby can't consent to being born, yet he is forced into the world. Reproduction is many times worse than the holocaust but no one bats an eye when hundreds of millions of babies a violently birthed into the world every year.

2018-02-06 13:55:35 UTC  

This ^

2018-02-06 13:55:39 UTC  

An unborn child can neither consent nor refuse to consent so his consent is withheld. If he eventually revokes consent, he should kill himself

2018-02-06 13:55:53 UTC  

is really straying from the topic and is complete crap

2018-02-06 13:56:21 UTC  

saying such a thing is just stupid and you are not taking there discussion seriously

2018-02-06 13:59:19 UTC  

The point is that the individual has certain rights on their property that ensures their saftey from people who wish harm (burgulars and such). However, the collective have a right to be safe as well so they impose some laws that may infringe on peoples indivdualality. THIS is why rape is bad and why growing weed is okay.; weed does little harm and so can be grown on ones property because the collective say so.

2018-02-06 13:59:37 UTC  

I personally believe that john was meaningfully contributing to the discussion by invoking the collectivist implications of reproduction.

2018-02-06 14:00:25 UTC  

NO rape is bad because it violates CONSENT of the INDIVIDUAL.

2018-02-06 14:04:28 UTC  

The individual is what's real. What acts and feels and decides. The collective only exists as a philosophical concept

2018-02-06 14:06:47 UTC  

yet how do people then live in a soicety.

Only the ladder is real