Message from @nyuuns2
Discord ID: 529401645537296411
Oy vey! 🤫
Before I begin, I would like to say that I am not a collectivist. I have a very individualist ideology, in that I think a society which forces collectivization necessarily needs everyone to be on the same page. That is why there is often a tribal group dynamic in left wing organizations which is against free speech, and does not allow free, individualistic thought.
Now, that said, some of the basic problems of capitalism would be inequality, environmental destruction, and the inherent unsustainability of a system which must always expand for it to exist. That is aside from the inherently less enjoyable quality of the work place.
Inequality is present under capitalist systems where there is great wealth gathered at the top, while tens of thousands of people die because they don't have health care, millions are under student loan debt, and the first world exists because of the exploitation of the third world. To expound on the third world argument; the first world consumes many resources, so much so that it would require many planets for the third world to operate on the level of the third world. Yet, instead of sharing the wealth of these first world countries with the world, companies ship jobs over seas so they can pay lower wages.
This takes us to the problem of wages, and why the tendency of the rate of profit to fall will necessarily lead to the end of capitalism. In a world with finite resources, a system which must expand indefinitely, cannot grow indefinitely. Especially when faced with peak oil reserves, and global warming which threatens aggriculture, water supplies, and coastal areas. Capitalism, when it cannot grow anymore, will collapse, and we will need to adopt a sustainable system.
Capitalism's toll on the environment - whether it is because of solely capitalism, or industrialization in general - has been massive. Capitalism requires growth, and it, as well as heavily industrial communism are unsustainable. 60% of species on the planet have gone extinct, there is now global warming which threatens to destroy the planet if we do not eliminate greenhouse gas emissions in 12 years. That is because of the greenhouse effect, in which gasses build up in the atmosphere and cause the planet to retain heat. If the planet reaches a critical temperature, it could enter the runaway greenhouse effect, which is what wiped out venus's oceans.
Now, I see the problem with collectivization. It leads to a society which is Orwellian, and...
at least you're not a centrist anymore @meratrix
It's always been in this area.
Okay so
You argue that capitalism must expand
@✿ Mittens ✿ You know that there are free market opportunities to help the environment?
I disagree.
i dont even know where to start with that Mittens
i'm pretty damn sure that guy is just a copypasting asswipe, fitzy
Cap is about supply and demand
I just wrote it on the spot, nyuu
saw him do that a few times already
There are resources that we either reuse, or cannot deplete.
Mittens actually writes this
Look, the free market is cleaning up the Pacific garbage patch
And the ideal capitalist system would be 100% efficient, reusing the resources it spends.
Are govts doing that?
Mittens is not arguing about govt right now, Fitz. Just economics.
Ahh, okay. But still
1 inequality is in all systems. Communism and socialism create far more than capitalism. And they prevent movement which capitalism allows.
Environment is a touchy one. Species have been going extinct for eons. And it will come back wit other ones. Also co2 is a minor polutant compared to even water vapor.
inequality is present in every system. even "communist" systems had massive inequalities, much moreso than capitalism at any point.
the third world has had lots of economic growth in the past few decades due to capitalism, which has brought so many people out of poverty.
in regards to wages, there are new occupations being created every day. first starting out as extremely well paying but with low number of people who can do a job, but over time was more people join the occupation, their wages fall due to supply and demand. think of airline pilots. they were once highly respected and very well paid. now they are glorified bus drivers.
Regarding the environment, I agree that the climate changes, however I disagree with the amount of human involvement. we just don't know how much is the fault of humans at this point, and as more and more evidence becomes available, its starting to look more like a catastrophic changes, rather than gradual changes (IMO of course). 99% of all species that have ever existed have gone extinct, so I think it would be foolish to think of the world and its ecology as unchanging. plus, if you are really concerned about the environment, you should be looking at china... a "communist" (or at the very least, socialist) country.
I'm addressing the environmental aspect
Inequality isnt inherently bad. The lack of ability of movement up and down is
People don't like to live in a dirty world. What makes you think there isn't a market for cleaning it?
Yes. People are not equal, naturally.
There is. Recycling is a huge market tbh
plus, theres also the fact that as people become more wealthy, they start worrying more and more about the environment. this would suggest that we should be encouraging capitalism to bring the entire world up to continue making people to become aware of the environment.
There is (probably) a place for everyone, no matter how useless, in a capitalistic society, however.
Which is how I am holding out hope!
people taking the initiative to clean horse shit from the streets is a great example @Fitzydog
and they made money from it
People arepaid for services if they are valued, yes