Being Jeffery Epstein's left-hand woman comes with a lot more than just the age factor.

Just like Harvey W. came with a lot more than just the age factor.

@Maw, I think you know I absolutely agree with you on the issue of power dynamics.

But... I am trying to make things as grey as I can. I don't think that @GregInHouston2 is trying to argue that the is no power dynamic issue between a Billionaire like Epstein and a 17 year old girl from the bad side of town. At least, I hope not because that would be ridiculous.

So... if we just take two very normal unspectacular people who grew up in the same town with no obvious difference in socio or economic differences....

There is still an argument here that base strictly on the idea that a 16 yr old (and certainly a 14 yr old) is not as mentally mature and sexually advanced as a 26+yr old. As such, the government has a legitimate interest in protecting that minor.

I agree with you there, no reason we need to cover it again. I'm still surprised that someone could think the mental capacity of 14->20+ being extremely disproportionate should even be in question.

"Summer of '42"

Operation Barbarossa. The real battle were friends we mad on the way.

I question the equal protection of the law. Again, 18 is okay and 28 is not. And we're talking about a girl that enjoys sex and has had several partners of her choosing.

28 is getting old.

I agree

There is no equal protection between adults and children.

No. We are talking about a CHILD.....

There is NO valid Equal Protection issue here... So again, it appears to me that your position is to just do away with all Statutory Rape Law and that is a pretty vile position to take, IMO

I mean.... I don't hear you arguing that that 14 year old girl should be able to enter into contracts like to buy a car, get a credit card or buy a house.. Nor should you because a 14 year old should not be able to enter in those types of contracts because they lack experience... they can be taken advantage of....

And Ironically enough that is one of the reasons we don't think its a good idea for them to "consent" to sex

@GregInHouston2

Looks like there is a partial consensus in europe ms. Maxwell is guilty of soliciting only.

Hungary wins

No, an 18 year old is an adult. I know that it is impossible to read all my posts on the subject so maybe you misunderstand my position. I'm not arguing any position. I'm questioning. I'm questioning a number of related things. Right now, we can keep it at a 16 year old and an 18 year versus 16 and 28.

Ive explained this several times. I am fine with addressing it as the 16 being the minor because your original position of the 14 year old is just plain creepy to me.

The reasons that we can deal with an 18 year old and a 16 year old having consensual sex without criminal charges are several but the two most obvious to me are:
1) The actual psychological development of a 16 and an 18 yr old are far closer than that of a 16 yr old and a 28 yr old (at least on average - there are exceptions to every rule). Just from a purely psychological and medical perspective on brain development a 16yr old and 18yr old are much closer than an 16yr old and a 28yr old. Additionally, one should be able to rely on the fact that odds are the 28 year old is far more experienced in sex and the emotional complexities that come along with it. And then there is also the power dynamic.

2) We do not want to set up a situation where a 15 yr old and a 17 year old are dating and having sex and then a year later that sex become illegal simply because the parties are a year older. This is why we do need to allow for some discretion when the two parties are closer in age.

Your position of the Equal Protection based on age could be completely dealt with by simply saying that "No one over 18 (an adult) can have sex with anyone under 18 (a minor), period."

We know that it is not an Equal Protection violation for us to require a person to be 18 to sign a contract or 21 to buy beer.

The reason is that the legal theory of Equal Protection is designed to establish that similarly situated individuals are treated equally. For example, ALL 18 year olds can vote once registered so long as they are not felons. If you deprived 18 year old of voting because he was of a different race or because he lived on the wrong side of the tracks - then there would be an equal protection issue.

Technically development stops around 25.

Yeppers, if I recall.... But the point is where a person is at in that developmental process. We don't stop developing at 18. But the development of a 23 to 26 year old is a good bit more advanced than in that of a 14 to 17yr old.

The only significant difference between an 18 year old and a 26 year old is the function of the Prefrontal Cortex which controls risk management and things like long-term planning. You could really generalize it and say that it controls rational thinking.

This is the reason why I believe someone who is not 25 shouldn't be given opportunity to make life altering decisions without adult guidance. The prefrontal cortex is key in deciding who to vote for, who to have sex with, if you should smoke or not, if you should do drugs or not, whether it's a good idea to join the Military.... All of these things require the ability to plan ahead and assess risk.. 18 year old's don't really have a strong grasp on this.

@{CAP}Radeon Yes! 1) Humans are not rational. 2) There is no guarantee any development at all takes place between 18 and 26. Or 13 and 26 for that matter.

any logic behind age of consensus will have holes the size of Hiroshima in it. Its a cut off created because not having one might have unanted consequences. It cant be anchored in ethics in any way shape or form, without massive amounts of exceptions.

To bring it back to the maxwell case; many of the "victims" earned money recruiting new victims after having been subject to "abuse". When reading the victims testimonies, some of them come forth as both calculated and callous.

Unlike Epstein himself, who clearly had the mind of a 14 year old.

I think that misses the larger point that we are addressing here. We are trying to protect children from predators while also not being cut throat about it and trying to have some level of common sense.

To some degree, children inherit mental traits from their parents.. But, more largely, their behaviors in adult life stem from their environment and that affects them in different ways depending on their IQ which is the largest factor. Children with a higher IQ tend to be able to recover from trauma more easily than children with lower a IQ. A major group of people who are sexual predators are that way because of their environment and the way they were raised. Of those individuals, most of them were sexually assaulted when they were children or had parents who were abusive in some way. For instance, a male born to a woman who is abusive runs the risk of becoming an abusive individual as well. In extreme cases they might develop homicidal thoughts toward their mother or women who fit her physical profile. I think it's really important that we recognize how difficult it would be to stop sexual predators before they hurt anyone without violating people's rights.

Its actually one of those correlations that work one way, but not the other.

"own history of abuse" is +2 points on SCR-20 (a tool for calculating probability of repeat abuse), but there is no statistically significant correlation *in populus*

for every molester with own history of abuse there are 120+ victims of abuse who would rather die than repeat what they were subjected to.

Come on! Seriously!

People are different. All you are looking at is abuse. People are different. Girls are different. Boys are different. But I've already said that I'm focusing on girls.

So look at two 14 year old girls. No abuse. Healthy girls with healthy families.

The first girl decided shortly after puberty that she wanted to have sex. After lots of searching, she finds a boy that she wants to have sex with. She does it with him. She likes it. So she keeps doing it with him and others. Having sex with an older man only means it will be in a nice comfy bed rather than the back of a car. There is no emotional attachment to her. For her, sex and love are two different things.

The second girl is very different. Despite her upbringing, she is insecure about her body. She is convinced that she is the only virgin in school. She also has no interest in a career or in home making. To be honest about it, I'm not that sure about the girl. I am pretty sure that if a handsome man with money to spend on her started paying attention to her, she would become emotionally attached to him and would consent to sex so that she would seem grown up to him.

Let's say there is a man. A salesman from out of town staying in a nice hotel with an upscale rental car and an expense account looking for someone to keep the overnight stay interesting.

I do not think we need to protect the first girl from him.

But the second girl does need protection. Unfortunately, there is no way in law to define the second girl. Now, boys her own age are not likely to have the experience or the resources to seduce her in the way the older man can.

I cannot think of any way to write a law that would allow the first girl to choose her partner while protecting the second one. We have to make it illegal for both to protect the second.

Of course, I'm sure someone is going to post that this salesmen having sex with the first girl is equally wrong. I am not expressing any opinion on that one!

can you think of an alternative to legislation, @GregInHouston2 ?

I am. WTF, do u mean the fact they are 14 is irrelevant?

Do u also let 14 y/o girls drink cos they want to try it?

Your argument falls apart in the simple fact that how can a persons mental state be evaluated to decide if they are emotionally mature, or distant (in your example), enough, to make life choices at 14?

14 year olds can drink legally in Benin, Bolivia, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Antigua and Barbuda, Central African Republic, Cambodia, Cameroon, China, Gabon, Guinea-Bissau, Indonesia, Kosovo, Laos, Mali, Rwanda, Sao Tome and Principe, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, Timor-Leste and Togo.

Wow. That sure is a list of slightly-other-than paradise locales. If you're looking for a cheap but memorable vacation, see options above.