Watch it then let's discuss the power dynamics.

I'll keep it in mind, thanks for the recommendation! Hopefully I'll have some time over the weekend to do so.

I explained exactly why one scenario makes sense and another doesn’t. I do not think I can make it more clear if you still do not understand.

Watch the movie then explain to me why that poor woman deserves 20 years in prison!

_cringes so hard he becomes a raisin._

@GregInHouston2 what movie?

First off... I never once said that it was "AOK for two 14 year olds to have sex" and I am unclear where you got that impression from anything I have said.

Most States have chosen different ages of consent, but most are around 16. But even then there is typically a great deal of importance placed on the age gap and it should be easy to see why such importance is placed upon that gap. It has to do with power dynamics AND just as importantly if not more so we, as humans, do a whole lot of growing and maturing in our teen years.

For me to suggest that an 18 year old is significantly more mature and advanced sexually than a 16 is likely going to get laughed at... at the very least many will object, and for good reason. But if I then suggest to you that a 26 year old is more mature and advances sexually than a 14 year old I would hope you would not object so fiercely.

It is absolutely true that on some level we have to recognize that individual people grow and mature at different rates and I have no doubt that you can find 17 year olds far more mature than some 25 year olds. But, in general, I hope we can all agree that 26 year olds are more mature and sexually advanced than 14 year olds. Think of it this way: It would shock me to hear someone had reached 26 without sexual intercourse with at least one partner. I would find is somewhat shocking to find out a 14 not to be a virgin.

As to your question....
"The 14 chooses a sex partner that is 18 and that is okay and legal. But if she chooses a 28 year then its is illegal. Explain that."

First... I never said it was okay or legal. In fact, in many States an 18 year old having sex with a 14 year IS ILLEGAL. In Tennessee its called Statutory Rape.

But, @GregInHouston2, let me get to the heart of your issue:

I do not believe that most 14 year olds are capable of consenting to sexual intercourse and since many States agree with me, lets make this a bit more grey:

A 16 year old can legally consent to sex with an 18yr old but they cannot with a 21yr old or above in most States. That is because most States set the age of consent at 16 but only with someone within 3 to 4 years (depending of the State) of the 16 year old - so at most 20yrs old.

So your question then becomes why is it ok for a 16 year old to consent to sex with a 19 year old and its not if the other party is 26? There is more validity to this question as after all some of these numbers are arbitrary. But the core of the logic here is two fold:
1) The larger the gap in age, particularly in these teen years, the larger the power and experience dynamic. Thus the more likely it is that the older partner is taking advantage of the lower.

2) It is completely reasonable that a 15 year old and 17 year old start dating and are engaging in sex. At some point the 17 year old is going to become an adult and the 15 will still be a minor. It makes no sense as all that those two minors who have been engaging in sex "legally" for some period of time are now violating the law just because the older is now 18.

So the bottom line here for me personally is that 14 year olds should not be able to give consent for sex. If it happens with another minor then we can let the juvenile courts sort it out without anyone facing a criminal record- so long at it was not forced.

And given it seems a ridiculous position to argue that there is no difference in a 14 year old having sex with another 14 year old than a 14 year old having sex with a 26 year old. Its just boggles the mind that you do not see the clear problem with that position.

So, once again, it seems less and less likely that your claim of wanting a fair trial for Maxwell is at the heart of your argument and more and more likely that you seem to want to do away with laws designed to protect minors from sexual predators.

Again, power dynamics and positions of power.

Age is one of many of the important factors in this.

Income and wealth are close to follow.

Social standing goes with the two above, and is another important factor.

Being Jeffery Epstein's left-hand woman comes with a lot more than just the age factor.

Just like Harvey W. came with a lot more than just the age factor.

@Maw, I think you know I absolutely agree with you on the issue of power dynamics.

But... I am trying to make things as grey as I can. I don't think that @GregInHouston2 is trying to argue that the is no power dynamic issue between a Billionaire like Epstein and a 17 year old girl from the bad side of town. At least, I hope not because that would be ridiculous.

So... if we just take two very normal unspectacular people who grew up in the same town with no obvious difference in socio or economic differences....

There is still an argument here that base strictly on the idea that a 16 yr old (and certainly a 14 yr old) is not as mentally mature and sexually advanced as a 26+yr old. As such, the government has a legitimate interest in protecting that minor.

I agree with you there, no reason we need to cover it again. I'm still surprised that someone could think the mental capacity of 14->20+ being extremely disproportionate should even be in question.

"Summer of '42"

Operation Barbarossa. The real battle were friends we mad on the way.

I question the equal protection of the law. Again, 18 is okay and 28 is not. And we're talking about a girl that enjoys sex and has had several partners of her choosing.

28 is getting old.

I agree

There is no equal protection between adults and children.

No. We are talking about a CHILD.....

There is NO valid Equal Protection issue here... So again, it appears to me that your position is to just do away with all Statutory Rape Law and that is a pretty vile position to take, IMO

I mean.... I don't hear you arguing that that 14 year old girl should be able to enter into contracts like to buy a car, get a credit card or buy a house.. Nor should you because a 14 year old should not be able to enter in those types of contracts because they lack experience... they can be taken advantage of....

And Ironically enough that is one of the reasons we don't think its a good idea for them to "consent" to sex

@GregInHouston2

Looks like there is a partial consensus in europe ms. Maxwell is guilty of soliciting only.

Hungary wins

No, an 18 year old is an adult. I know that it is impossible to read all my posts on the subject so maybe you misunderstand my position. I'm not arguing any position. I'm questioning. I'm questioning a number of related things. Right now, we can keep it at a 16 year old and an 18 year versus 16 and 28.

Ive explained this several times. I am fine with addressing it as the 16 being the minor because your original position of the 14 year old is just plain creepy to me.

The reasons that we can deal with an 18 year old and a 16 year old having consensual sex without criminal charges are several but the two most obvious to me are:
1) The actual psychological development of a 16 and an 18 yr old are far closer than that of a 16 yr old and a 28 yr old (at least on average - there are exceptions to every rule). Just from a purely psychological and medical perspective on brain development a 16yr old and 18yr old are much closer than an 16yr old and a 28yr old. Additionally, one should be able to rely on the fact that odds are the 28 year old is far more experienced in sex and the emotional complexities that come along with it. And then there is also the power dynamic.

2) We do not want to set up a situation where a 15 yr old and a 17 year old are dating and having sex and then a year later that sex become illegal simply because the parties are a year older. This is why we do need to allow for some discretion when the two parties are closer in age.

Your position of the Equal Protection based on age could be completely dealt with by simply saying that "No one over 18 (an adult) can have sex with anyone under 18 (a minor), period."

We know that it is not an Equal Protection violation for us to require a person to be 18 to sign a contract or 21 to buy beer.

The reason is that the legal theory of Equal Protection is designed to establish that similarly situated individuals are treated equally. For example, ALL 18 year olds can vote once registered so long as they are not felons. If you deprived 18 year old of voting because he was of a different race or because he lived on the wrong side of the tracks - then there would be an equal protection issue.

Technically development stops around 25.

Yeppers, if I recall.... But the point is where a person is at in that developmental process. We don't stop developing at 18. But the development of a 23 to 26 year old is a good bit more advanced than in that of a 14 to 17yr old.

The only significant difference between an 18 year old and a 26 year old is the function of the Prefrontal Cortex which controls risk management and things like long-term planning. You could really generalize it and say that it controls rational thinking.

This is the reason why I believe someone who is not 25 shouldn't be given opportunity to make life altering decisions without adult guidance. The prefrontal cortex is key in deciding who to vote for, who to have sex with, if you should smoke or not, if you should do drugs or not, whether it's a good idea to join the Military.... All of these things require the ability to plan ahead and assess risk.. 18 year old's don't really have a strong grasp on this.

@{CAP}Radeon Yes! 1) Humans are not rational. 2) There is no guarantee any development at all takes place between 18 and 26. Or 13 and 26 for that matter.

any logic behind age of consensus will have holes the size of Hiroshima in it. Its a cut off created because not having one might have unanted consequences. It cant be anchored in ethics in any way shape or form, without massive amounts of exceptions.

To bring it back to the maxwell case; many of the "victims" earned money recruiting new victims after having been subject to "abuse". When reading the victims testimonies, some of them come forth as both calculated and callous.

Unlike Epstein himself, who clearly had the mind of a 14 year old.