Message from @Mr. Nessel

Discord ID: 700808591979970610


2020-04-17 20:02:46 UTC  

@21ooAB @clossington Is this a valid critique for nationalism? I don't even understand why these progressives or, in this case, pro EU people would claim it is a bad idea to fix their own countries before helping others.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/672211350436708356/700798431383257171/unknown.png

2020-04-17 20:03:13 UTC  

That's Keith Wood's critique of old-school nationalism

2020-04-17 20:03:15 UTC  

At which point should we be concerned with both global and national issues?

2020-04-17 20:07:07 UTC  

@clossington Which is?

2020-04-17 20:07:47 UTC  

Global issues require international cooperation between nations

2020-04-17 20:33:38 UTC  

Greece can't hold the migrants at bay on it's own

2020-04-17 20:34:13 UTC  

The issue with Euroskepticism is that it identifies institutions themselves as the problem
Rather than the European parliament being filled with actors, people who can be replaced it needs to be burned down
Somehow breaking the EU into it's rotten pieces will fix everything somehow

2020-04-17 20:35:14 UTC  

Brexit if anything has enabled the British establishment to go ahead and become more dependent on free trade, Nato etc.

2020-04-17 20:35:38 UTC  

Not to mention their intention to swap Poles with Pakis which is just great

2020-04-17 20:36:07 UTC  

Any sort of nationalist momentum is completely wasted now, the energy completely sedated with a false victory

2020-04-17 20:37:18 UTC  

There is no way to really opt out of this as a single country. You're going to have to attack this holistically or provide a viable alternative for small states to opt in

2020-04-17 20:38:04 UTC  

Without it a state that genuinely chooses to opt out will just be a right wing North Korea, an international pariah

2020-04-17 20:38:40 UTC  

the EU has been a left wing political project from the start

2020-04-17 20:38:53 UTC  

i dont know how you can blame simply the actors and not the institution itself

2020-04-17 20:39:10 UTC  

And so have most nation states with constitutions

2020-04-17 20:39:40 UTC  

The EU is ultimately just amalgamating a bunch of states which are already flawed to begin with

2020-04-17 20:39:52 UTC  

It is left wing because its constituent parts are

2020-04-17 20:40:47 UTC  

Swap out the people in charge and the EU becomes a right wing institution

2020-04-17 20:42:13 UTC  

Otherwise every single time a national government fucks up to be consistent you would need to advocate secession
If this applies at all, it also applies to nation states

2020-04-17 20:42:42 UTC  

Germany is left wing, gues the GDR needs to return

2020-04-17 20:43:08 UTC  

America gets a blue government, guess red states should all secede to end the tyranny of Washington or whatever

2020-04-17 20:43:31 UTC  

thats pretty simplistic analysis

2020-04-17 20:43:41 UTC  

the EU as a political institution is recent

2020-04-17 20:43:52 UTC  

So is the nation state

2020-04-17 20:43:56 UTC  

It's not that old

2020-04-17 20:44:11 UTC  

modern nation states have been around for 300 years or more

2020-04-17 20:44:21 UTC  

anyway

2020-04-17 20:44:23 UTC  

Not really

2020-04-17 20:44:31 UTC  

the chalice is too poisoned either way

2020-04-17 20:44:52 UTC  

why not burn it to the ground and rebuild a different supranational european poltiical bloc

2020-04-17 20:45:26 UTC  

You could go with that but nobody is trying it right now and it'd be risky to be the first to try

2020-04-17 20:45:44 UTC  

So you'd need to wait for several right wing governments to come into power

2020-04-17 20:45:47 UTC  

i dont see a new EU emerging for a while after this one falls

2020-04-17 20:45:51 UTC  

Than coordinate them leaving

2020-04-17 20:45:54 UTC  

what i can imagine is a balkanization

2020-04-17 20:45:59 UTC  

And have the block be viable

2020-04-17 20:46:04 UTC  

UK becomes a US vassal (atlanticists)

2020-04-17 20:46:09 UTC  

more join the visegrad group

2020-04-17 20:46:26 UTC  

Visegrad group is entirely part of the Nato system

2020-04-17 20:46:28 UTC  

EU remains as germany and the scandis

2020-04-17 20:46:54 UTC  

Which would leave us way too weak