no you aren't

"You don't see it as fact? But I cannot fathom!"

you are trying to guilt people into accepting that Altrusim's definition is to be leeched off ot

*of

and it's not

and it isn't working

no, altruism's definition is to allow yourself to be leeched off of.

no it's not

because it neccessitates a sacrifice.

it's definition is to willingly help a person

you are the one not wanting to see it for what it truly is and are trying to force people to see it your way.

but who says that a society can't be altruistic but the people not?

Basically, what I was trying to get at is this: if I have to sacrifice for the good of humanity, sign me up. I don't even care if I'm being leeched off of, it's a purposeful leeching I fully consent to. And if the situation were to ever arise, I would never, in a _million years_ think of only myself. I'd be apprehensive as all hell, but I wouldn't _not_ sacrifice.

if you force a person to pay for someone and have them be dependent on you, it's not Altruism

I'm giving a part of myself to something I believe in.

And that's the part absolutely no one could ever take away from me.

In any concievable situation.

The part of me _wanting_ to make changes for the betterment of my kind.

but you are included in your kind

so you still are not performing a sacrifice.

"One of us suffers, so all of us must suffer"

It sounds a lot like naivety.

> wants to not be a degenerate
> is degenerate

same

>>

I make the choice. And in the end, no one's going to take that choice away from me if the need ever arises.

as Aristotle famously said, things are what they are, not what we want them to be.

go ahead

I'm going to have to direct you to the same quote.

I support your choice

I feel like you _want_ there not to be tough choices like that, and a bigger picture to consider. If someone wants to live for themselves, they can go right on ahead. Otherwise, the sacrifice and other sacrifices will have been for nothing.

but what if the society neccessitates sacrifice? like with the welfare system? they can't live for themself.

then they need to be taught how to live on their own

fuck off

they will die and you know it

you are undermining the purpose and value of division of labour

you can't just expect people to continuously pay for them, and then when the peopel who they relied on dy out, they will be left alone and they will die too because they don't know how to do anything for themselves

it's not a permanent solution

you cant just devolve society back to individuals

Again, it goes back to this. People need to become more independant, and be able to stand on their own two feet.

i agree completely