wow veriac, you're very intelligent. a fascist third positionist. wowwww. very original. BIG thonk

it's funny to think about how much time the e-nazi that made that spent looking at that image

fascism is esoteric and stupid

definitionally, a lot of fascist economies align with with capitalist ones; corporatist governments that favor class collaboration

@Maksim I used to be into market socialism but I don't think that i think profit corrupts production already

And I don't know how democratically organizing the work place without removing the profit motive would mitigate that

so two fascists, one with a Celtic cross incorporating symbol and one with a sonnenrad profile pictures, tell me about how fascist thought ISN'T chock full of esoteric bullshit about race?

pretty rich

also yea no shit i dont believe in class collab im a communist. classes aren't inevitable if you abolish class by democratically organizing the means of production 😳

you can democratically organize in more than one way

there are multiple kinds of democracy

gtfoh w that dumbass shit

lol

well, we've also pretty unanimously decided that the earth is not in fact flat, but more of an oblate spheroid

it is dumb

there are multiple different kinds of democracy

im not an advocate of direct democracy

so it was a strawman

fuck you

representative democracy. the workplace should be organized into unions the represent the interests certain groups, who will come together to make decisions on the process of production

im a fan of the ideas of the socialist labor party of america and daniel de leon

socialist industrial unionism

workplace is already pretty bureaucratic but in a top-down sort of way. you might as well have a say in how its run

also @Ater Votum it isnt and ur appealing to nature which isnt always a good thing

no one's immune to thinking stupid shit

but hopefully if they do other workers would be able to shut them down thru the democratic process

which is why you need a largely educated population... but anyways. what if the sky was fuckin purple? you could go on and on about what ifs. democracy isn't a flawless system, but its been the one to be the most efficient in organizing human society for near millennia

it is generally speaking

wow you blew my mind

fuck you lol

saying "it stupid" isnt a valid argument either

so wtf r u on about

fuck off nazbol

theres a reason for that, because electoral politics as it is is bust

people are apathetic because their votes mean nothing in a corporate-dominated system

e.g. capitalism

i never said that they wouldnt

capitalism just sucks at doing that more than socialism

capitalism just sux at educating ppl more than socialism

im sorry it gets ur panties in a twist but thats just what happens my man

can do

yep

fuck you

literally

i will fuck you

oh hey thats a lenin quote :^)

and yea in the USSR unless you were disabled and could not work, you had to

there was virtually no unemployment that is to say

yes you could spend time in prison for idly subsisting

@Veraic come w me and we will be our own masters 🙂

no god

god aint real man

alter wtf was your argument even, that when workers get only the bare minimum they will work poorly?

yes i know

i dont think that should be the case

i believe in wages tho ? under socialism, while the state still exists as an active entity at least.

i just think the problem lies in the way you recieve the full fruits of your labor.

under the status quo, you're missing a lot of the benefits of the return of the surplus value you reduce because it is extracted by a capitalist for profit

in a socialist society, you'd recieve the benefits in a way of, say, a universal healthcare system, a universal education system, etc. etc. and also a wage.

im telling u where it comes from though

the profit that would be accumulated by the capitalist

ur not understanding what im saying... im saying that we need to reorganize production to REMOVE the profit motive. the surplus value extracted from the worker that would traditionally go to fatten a capitalist's wallet

would be reimbursed to the worker

i suggest reading the gotha programme

yes. and you say "if someone ruins their body" like the profit generated from your labor couldn't be used to help an organ transplant for a congenitally ill person. the money can be used in various different ways

and you're also receiving the equal access to care the care needed

so wtf does that matter anyways

would you rather have the money lining ur bosses wallet or in a hospital

then we have an axiomatic disagreement here. i believe in the greatest good for the greatest amount of people possible is the most beneficial

cant atomize it much further than that you guys

well i can really teach you how to express basic empathy, so lol continue being an edgy shitlord pls

"I have empathy but I'm not going to be a fucking retard"

ur rlly showing off your empathy skills there champ

also no most undocumented people aren't on any government programs and pay a lot of their living to taxes

it's also sad that we can do something about it but for some reason you egg heads think helping people would destroy society lol

when has that ever been shown to be the case

not true

They actually contribute a lot economically

Immigration in general is a net economic benefit

I meant egg head because you guys have five-heads

Go to niger then veriac

I was just responding to sato saying that they're a financial burden

They aren't tho

Its been empirically shown

And I could like studies if you'd like?

Or an article

@sato13193 I'd really love to see the methodology to this, because the actual apparent sample sizes are in the thousands and weighted to the millions lol

https://d279m997dpfwgl.cloudfront.net/wp/2016/09/0922_immigrant-economics-full-report.pdf

https://www.nap.edu/catalog/23550/the-economic-and-fiscal-consequences-of-immigration

This 2017 examines statistics through the past 2 decades on the effects of immigration federally, and concluded that the overall cost of immigrants is paid back in full, especially with the far more productive second generation

https://www.nber.org/digest/mar10/w15507.html

They increase factor productivity and actually work more interestingly

@Veraic I agree, immigrants and undocumented people are heavily exploited which is why we need much less strict immigration, and give them the rights of native workers, and just overall strengthen organized labor

Because they're functionally a very large part of the working class, being very productive and paying a shit ton in taxes. Legal and illegal (https://itep.org/undocumented-immigrants-state-local-tax-contributions-2017/)

@Maksim I was only making the argument because some dumbfuck said they were a financial drain

You can't preserve culture. Culture has always changed, regardless of the ethnic make-up of your country and it will continue to do so

I'm not advocating for mass migration lol I recognize the problems with it. I just think "preserving culture" is arbitrary and retarded. YOU attributed that to me. But anyways