yeah also the idea that coops are a means to revolutionary government is kind of absurd considering Mondragon operated under Franco and posed no threat to his government or him to their business

And yeah, the movement is rife with such types.

@quiscalus Exactly. I know quite a few anarchists and closeted social democrats who advocate such an organizational form. It's really absurd and very non-revolutionary.

I am a lot more sympathetic to the MLs and tankies especially learning more about how the revolution in October in 1817 came to be and the related push back my outside forces

I could be wrong but my theory is that since the huge anti soviet sentiment from the cold war makes people super reactionary and tend to not be interested in learning more about the ML prospective, at least that is what happened to me

Yeah, 16 foreign militaries, as well as the White Army, tried their best to stop the revolution in its tracks.

the 1817 revolution was funded by soros

Lol

@quiscalus Yeah, unfortunately the "Red Scare" and McCarthyism really left a negative impression.

yeah when you think about what Lincoln did in the civil war their reaction is not too unreasonable but you are practically considered stupid and unamerican if you are critical of Lincolns approach

My biggest criticism of the revolutionary left in the US it seems like it solely caters to very educated middle class folks and refuses to adapt to both explain and attract common working folks.

Yeah, I'm not too fond of Lincoln considering the fact that he was a closeted racist who would have gladly kept the institution of slavery in tact if it meant he could preserve the union while avoiding civil war.

using soviet imagery and Marxist jargon imo causes individuals to not even consider what is being said let alone open really having what is said change their opinion

I am just saying that other leaders remain blameless in the minds of most Americans but because our political prejudices we level hefty accusations against USSR without taking time to grasp the circumstances

@quiscalus Unfortunately there are a lot of academic types that are highly disconnected from the working-class movement, but there are also major organizations and groupings that are actively involved in their local communities doing things like feeding the homeless, setting up "free stores," combating gentrification, hosting book studies for people with little to no theoretical knowledge, and offering advanced, college-level classes at little to no cost.

he thing that troubles me is that I think working class people are more likely to stay motivated by the material conditions they live as compared to the more upper middle class college student who as they graduate and have better incomes have less material pressures to guide them to or keep them in a revolutionary perspective and are more likely to become some type of soc dem reformers

And many of these people are "Stalinists". Lol

yeah I just started getting involved in the food bank here but I wish I could do more about housing in my area but that seems like a more difficult issue to address considering how food and housing differ so much in regards to capital

for businesses giving away unwanted food saves them time, money, and energy where things like houses and apartment require huge amounts of capital and are not easily parted with

@quiscalus Yeah, I tend to ground my analysis in world-systems theory, as well dependency theory. I don't believe there's revolutionary potential in the first world, at least not currently. There are too many workers who have been essentially "bought-out" by the system and are beneficiaries of the superprofits that are extracted via the hyperexploitation of the proletariat in the third world. There is little to no incentive for revolution here and class-conciousness is at an all-time low.

That is, of course, not an excuse for inaction. On the contrary, I believe resistance is crucial.

How's it hanging bruhs

yeah I do consider that a major problem here but as I think as the economic strength of the US withers and material conditions become worse with people especially with automation I think the ideas of socialism with gain more traction

maybe she stole them

Maybe @Trve Metalist

But she's not black so probably not

friendly reminder to steal

its good

its free

and you will not get caught

@quiscalus Oh, I definitely sympathize with you. That's highly plausible.

<:merchant:323550879749898242>

What do you guys think of the Cloward-Piven strategy as a way to overthrow capitalism?

I just feel like most of the people I know or work with just will not be swayed by the tactics used by most leftist organizations even reformists soc dems like the DSA sport hammer and sickles on red tshirts and use marxist jargon

I don't believe that will end poverty, and it certainly won't bring about socialism.

like my friend and coworker thinks the working situation is unfair but in a general sense but lacks understanding behind the inequality of power and wealth in regards to capital and labor, he is a great guy but only read part of a book in his life oustide of school

I find it funny that Cloward and Piven pandered to the Democratic Party.

I am ignorant of the Cloward-Piven strategy, what is it?

They were clearly not Marxists and I've heard more convincing arguments for a UBI that weren't over-idealistic in approach and intended results.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloward–Piven_strategy

I try to explain marxist ideas to my fellow workers but using language rather than talking about how their labor is exploited by capitalists I say they get ripped off, and I just explain that the dudes who own all the stuff at the place we work give us less money than we make for them and make all the decisions on the place is run despite us doing most of the work

That is the best way to do it. You should always strive for simplicity when trying to explain complicated ideas.

use ideas like 99 percent

that is why occupy wall st was so popular

also explain how it is not fair because him and his family are rich because the work we do and how we struggle to pay rent and afford basic things but things would change if we all had a say compared to the boss making all the decisions

yeah that had lots of potential but I think got fractured into many different causes and got bogged down with organizing in a less functional way like getting caught up with idpol in regards to decision making like the progressive stack and the like

Exactly. Idpol is cancerous.

Who here is familiar with the book 'Rules for radicals'?

I have heard of it

I never read it

I am. I have a copy on my shelf. It's an interesting read and Saul Alinsky was a great organizer.

He was certainly worthy of the title, "Father of Community Organizing". His tactics have been proven effective time and time again.

@Deleted User True that.

do you guys know many anarchists? I have lots of friends that identify that way and never handle any cases of interpersonal violence in a constructive manner people do really bad things towards each other like sexual assault but refuse to involve the state so people who commit the crimes go unpunished but just are shunned by some and spoken ill of on social media

Well, Gary is an Anarcho-Stalinist.. ;P

I am not for vigilantism in the least and the whole situation frustrates me to no end

Here is a pdf of the book I strongly suggest everyone reads it:https://chisineu.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/saul-alinsky-rules-for-radicals-1989.pdf

thanks

I've met a few serious anarchists and lifestylists, but their idealism and complete disconnect from reality was far from appealing. I also went through a phase, around the time I joined the IWW, where I considered myself an Anarcho-Syndicalist. I enjoyed reading Insurrectionary Anarchist literature as well. Lol

The earth is flat

Btw

I am think there is a serious flaws in the criminal justice system and major abuses by the police but I don't reject the idea as a whole, I just hate to see people who really harm others not punished in any way or if innocent slandered with no recourse

the problem with police is that they serve the interests of the rich and elite

like I have friends that ended up murdering a person in a robbery for drugs and my leftist friends want them to go free, I think it is absurdf

Punishment does nothing

not to protect and serve the people

Literally

that comes later

It’s all about rehabilitation

Not punishment

Exactly. They exist only to protect and serve the interests of the bourgeoisie.

Um you know that’s not true right

Um, I know it is.

That is not there sole purpose

I think he should do what is best to help society function well and reform people but I am not against a rigged system in favor of no system at all

If you think that you are beyond delusional

like my old friend and roommate murdered someone and my friends don't think the state should act

http://www.theolympian.com/news/local/article182677826.html

@black jack What is their purpose? Please explain before I embarass you.

protecting and serving people comes after the interest of the bourg tho

All I see is stupid republicans, and idiotic liberals, and I'm just here like "I just want lil peep back"

tbh xanax and codeine addicts are truly today what the hippies where in the 60s

I am not a huge fan of the music he did but I think we should handle drugs and addiction better

they are the true anti system

That the role of police is regularly brought to the centre of things is testimony to the crucial and apparently contradictory role they play in this society. Within the line of their work, they accomplish some seemingly positive things. For example, they may break up fights, arrest insane serial killers and if we are to believe modern televised mythology, help fragile old people cross hazardous city street corners. Then again, any striking worker that has had to deal with them knows they always defend the bosses interests, anybody who has any knowledge of the judicial system knows that they literally all lie under oath and anybody who was brought up in a poor working class neighbourhood has witnessed or experienced their abuse. Of course capitalists, politicians and media propagandists refer only to the former activities to actively promote the police in any way they can. Copwatch liberals and other critical apologists for the police will generally dismiss the latter activities and denounce "isolated cases", rogue cops and call for community control commissions or enquiries on individual incidents.

For most people, the concept of State is associated with legislatures and politicians. This is a very partial view of its content. Besides these institutions must be added the bureaucracy, the judicial apparatus, the clergy, the media, the army, and... the police. The police are the first line of the “bodies of armed men” (4) that are intended to defend the interest of the ruling class. If their real function was to stop crime, they would arrest every capitalist on the planet, as these are the true criminals and their regime the real source of all crime.

Unlike the worker whose interest is to get rid of the boss’s rule, the existence of the police is directly tied to the maintenance of the State and capitalist property relations. In this sense, in no way can cops or prison guards be seen as members of the working class as the trade unions would want us to believe.

I think in a more ideal state they would serve the interests of the people as compared to serving the interests of the people with power in society but I am not against the idea of law enforcement, laws, of the judicial system

Yeah, I agree. I am not at all opposed to something like a "Peoples Militia" or "Community Police Force".

well I think do process is important and people should do our best to avoid insane things like what happened in the Spanish civil war

mass executions based on suspected political associations

I agree, and I firmly believe that the executions which were carried out by the Republican side was a direct-result of the breakdown of the state, as opposed to the orchestrated killings which were organized and approved by Nationalist authorities.

I am of course not saying that their model is one which should be emulated. I am, after all, a Marxist-Leninist. Lol

I tend to ascribe to the mainstream consensus amongst historians in regards to the Spanish Civil War and the atrocities which took place.

yeah the nationalists were way worse but the republican side had major organizational issues along with crazy infighting that contributed to them losing the war along with very limited outside support from governments

Oh yeah, no doubt. There were so many different ideologies at play from Social Democracy to Trotskyism to Anarchism to Marxism-Leninism. Their downfall was inevitable imo. Not enough unity and little support from outside sources.

it is weird to think how long franco remained in power and how little was done about him

unrelated to leftist politics but are you guys buying yourself anything for xmas

Yeah, I think the church played a crucial role in stifling resistance.

As for Xmas, I may buy myself a book or two. You?