@Deleted User also thanks for suggesting I read the state and revolution I am over half way done now at it really helps me understand Marx and his vision for revolutionary change, as a person who only read the communist manifesto I was not as familiar with that Marx outlined

I disagree, I think we should have some kind of SS to regulate the nation instead of the workers. Because the workers will only work in their own self interest but the SS (or whatever we called it) could work for the benefit of everyone.

It also shows how many people who claim to be socialists like a lot of social democrats are actually revisionists and subvert the goals of socialism

I agree, I believe that it is definitely important. I am, however, not a fan of cooperatives as they still have to compete in the market and often times the "worker-owners" end up bossing around other workers, as is the case with Mondragon, for example.

@quiscalus No problem, glad you're enjoying it.

yeah also the idea that coops are a means to revolutionary government is kind of absurd considering Mondragon operated under Franco and posed no threat to his government or him to their business

And yeah, the movement is rife with such types.

@quiscalus Exactly. I know quite a few anarchists and closeted social democrats who advocate such an organizational form. It's really absurd and very non-revolutionary.

I am a lot more sympathetic to the MLs and tankies especially learning more about how the revolution in October in 1817 came to be and the related push back my outside forces

I could be wrong but my theory is that since the huge anti soviet sentiment from the cold war makes people super reactionary and tend to not be interested in learning more about the ML prospective, at least that is what happened to me

Yeah, 16 foreign militaries, as well as the White Army, tried their best to stop the revolution in its tracks.

the 1817 revolution was funded by soros

Lol

@quiscalus Yeah, unfortunately the "Red Scare" and McCarthyism really left a negative impression.

yeah when you think about what Lincoln did in the civil war their reaction is not too unreasonable but you are practically considered stupid and unamerican if you are critical of Lincolns approach

My biggest criticism of the revolutionary left in the US it seems like it solely caters to very educated middle class folks and refuses to adapt to both explain and attract common working folks.

Yeah, I'm not too fond of Lincoln considering the fact that he was a closeted racist who would have gladly kept the institution of slavery in tact if it meant he could preserve the union while avoiding civil war.

using soviet imagery and Marxist jargon imo causes individuals to not even consider what is being said let alone open really having what is said change their opinion

I am just saying that other leaders remain blameless in the minds of most Americans but because our political prejudices we level hefty accusations against USSR without taking time to grasp the circumstances

@quiscalus Unfortunately there are a lot of academic types that are highly disconnected from the working-class movement, but there are also major organizations and groupings that are actively involved in their local communities doing things like feeding the homeless, setting up "free stores," combating gentrification, hosting book studies for people with little to no theoretical knowledge, and offering advanced, college-level classes at little to no cost.

he thing that troubles me is that I think working class people are more likely to stay motivated by the material conditions they live as compared to the more upper middle class college student who as they graduate and have better incomes have less material pressures to guide them to or keep them in a revolutionary perspective and are more likely to become some type of soc dem reformers

And many of these people are "Stalinists". Lol

yeah I just started getting involved in the food bank here but I wish I could do more about housing in my area but that seems like a more difficult issue to address considering how food and housing differ so much in regards to capital

for businesses giving away unwanted food saves them time, money, and energy where things like houses and apartment require huge amounts of capital and are not easily parted with

@quiscalus Yeah, I tend to ground my analysis in world-systems theory, as well dependency theory. I don't believe there's revolutionary potential in the first world, at least not currently. There are too many workers who have been essentially "bought-out" by the system and are beneficiaries of the superprofits that are extracted via the hyperexploitation of the proletariat in the third world. There is little to no incentive for revolution here and class-conciousness is at an all-time low.

That is, of course, not an excuse for inaction. On the contrary, I believe resistance is crucial.

How's it hanging bruhs

yeah I do consider that a major problem here but as I think as the economic strength of the US withers and material conditions become worse with people especially with automation I think the ideas of socialism with gain more traction

maybe she stole them

Maybe @Trve Metalist

But she's not black so probably not

friendly reminder to steal

its good

its free

and you will not get caught

@quiscalus Oh, I definitely sympathize with you. That's highly plausible.

<:merchant:323550879749898242>

What do you guys think of the Cloward-Piven strategy as a way to overthrow capitalism?

I just feel like most of the people I know or work with just will not be swayed by the tactics used by most leftist organizations even reformists soc dems like the DSA sport hammer and sickles on red tshirts and use marxist jargon

I don't believe that will end poverty, and it certainly won't bring about socialism.