However, Yezhov claimed that previous confessions were obtained through torture

@Sorghagtani Beki what is the difference?

Torture biases confessions

@Sorghagtani Beki Who cares about confessions?

The soviets most clearly did when they tortured Yezhov into giving them

@Sorghagtani Beki why is it important for us?

Before this, there was also discussion on why Yezhov was executed in the first place

and if it had been for mass killings, why use fabricated excuses?

There was plenty of evidence of Yezhov's massacres

@Sorghagtani Beki so? what is the end point?

It was a discussion on whether Stalin remained apathetic to Yezhov or openly opposed his manners of executions

and so far I have not gotten evidence to disprove an apathetic air

@Sorghagtani Beki It is interesting. Some people in the first world can't say if Obama did this or that and why. But they know why Stalin did this or that in another country in another time.

or confirm a concerned disposition

So many opinionated people .

On that topic.

It is interesting that many people cannot say anything about Obama's motives

but that is a result of political apathy, and blind opinion

many liberals may try to ignore criticism

many conservatives in america may assume things

It has nothing to do with discussion on Stalin

@Sorghagtani Beki What is your opinion on Stalin?

I feel that he had good motives, but so does everyone

When looking at Stalin, you have to examine the cost of his goals

and those costs were too high

those costs would have been avoided if Lenin was leader

@Sorghagtani Beki Anarchists shot Lenin. What can we do?

even Trotsky would have been a better choice

@Sorghagtani Beki But nobody picked him.

and Lenin specifically was against Stalin

@Sorghagtani Beki Party accepted Stalin's program and kicked out Trotskie.

out of rashness

we know how the party criticized stalin afterwards

@Sorghagtani Beki After many years of discussion on Trotskie vs Stalin.

and how they applauded Khruschev's bitter criticisms of him

the communist leaders were heavily against Lenin's NEP

that may be why

Stalin was particularly critical of it

they lacked the patience

@OF-8 "the system i have works, provably works" You mean financially through mechanisms of exploitation.
It would be a deadlock if you had a rational framework for your assertion, but you only have opinion and what looks like contradiction. But I would not expect much else from an idealist. Good chat.

@Sorghagtani Beki Trotskie was an outcast long before he was kicked out. Small percent of Party backed him up.

we should examine why Stalin was supported

and in my belief it is because, like many other communist leaders, he wanted to rush socialism

@Sorghagtani Beki Because of the program.

He made a plan.

For all.

his plan cost too many lives

@Sorghagtani Beki lives do not matter.

let me ask you, if lenin had been alive and in power, would they have been lost?

and perhaps, in your opinion, may the soviet union still exist?

@Sorghagtani Beki We do not know. It is history.

Lenin understood that there had to be temporary compromise with capitalism

and he cannot be called a capitalist pig after all he had done

others were too impatient

examine the costs of their impatience

@Sorghagtani Beki no compromise is necessary.

It is if you want to minimize collateral damage

@Sorghagtani Beki you don't.

then this is a disagreement based on ethics

I, for one, do not support experimentation on my fellow countrymen

@Sorghagtani Beki ethics are a delusion.

and each of their lives is important

Morals are idealist.

We are materialist.

they are not mutually exclusive

@Sorghagtani Beki there is no need in morals. Morality is an illusion.

Creation of the schizophrenic Jewish mind.

Of old.

usually this is said on the basis that you would not be apart of the collateral damage

opinions would quickly change, otherwise

since when was the left selfish?

@Sorghagtani Beki we have our own communist morality. Based on the good of the revolution and evolution.

Morality based on material ground.

on the condition that you are not at the other end of the gun barrel?

If it is profitable to proletariat it shall be implemented.

if you want the proletariat to have better lives, then you should seek to minimize casualties so that more can enjoy those better lives

@Sorghagtani Beki there was like 2% of proletariat in Russia and after Stalin 99%

Interest of proletariat. Expansion of proletariat. Rule of proletariat. Liberation of proletariat in other countries.

Nothing else is moral.

I am curious. What do you think should be done about non-proletariat?

@Sorghagtani Beki non proletariat is to be destroyed by any means necessary.

they were born in the wrong place, in a wrong social position, and thus they must be killed?

no bloodless work around?

@Sorghagtani Beki I didn't say killed. I said destroyed.

How will you destroy them?

@Sorghagtani Beki By eliminating them.

In what way?

@Sorghagtani Beki In the way of conversion to proletariat.

and how do you plan on doing that?

@Sorghagtani Beki same way Stalin did. By giving every man a job.

I am wondering, what are some critiques you have of many countries in the EU

for example, Germany

short work hours, high productivity, low unemployment rate

guaranteed social necessities

even homeless are given shelters, food, healthcare

4 weeks paid vacation time, carried over to the next year if unused

@Sorghagtani Beki There were some German Marxists here, couple of days ago. They were complaining about life in Germany like there is no tomorrow.

What were some complaints?

@Sorghagtani Beki Low income. High rent.

Did they have to struggle to survive? How long did they work each week?