"A single book" point to where I said it was only one that you ever shilled

There was a specific book you repeatedly brought up

5 proofs

Now notice how @Beemann instead of just acknowledging the reality of his religious views, and the many Atheist ideologies that have turned murderous, ro anything else, h e just keeps claiming his ideology is perfect and above reproach. Again, there is no reason for th ose of us who reject Atheism to care what these slimy abusive dishonest Atheists think, is there?

"Let me call all atheists bad people, then call them liars for saying pointing out you just called them a bad person, then say you never said they were a bad person"

Which was literally just an elaboration of Aquinas' 5 proofs

Also nice strawman

Please address my actual points, and not the ones you would rather deal with

Now @Beemann lies right in froint of everybody, where they can verify I gave multiple completely polite referencs to multiple sources, including multiple books and videos, and offered more. Why can't Beeman stop lying, even when everybody present can go verify he's lying?

You seem like the stereotypical smug self-important self-righteous atheist who just 'switched teams' without actually changing your thought process.

>you specifically references a particular book repeatedly
>you liar, I referenced multiple books
I'm not lying if there's no contradiction

The problem @Beemann appears to have is that I gave comletely neutral and polite answers to inquiries when asked for research and references. Everything I stated was social science data. But Beeman can't h andle it. I think it's the cognitive dissonance of having his cult ideology questioned.

Lol
>social science
>data
>Aquinas
Who's lying now?

I think it was him, or one of the others, who denied having father issues, then ran away crying saying I had insulted someone from a broken home--himself. Can't remember which of th ese Cultist Atheist Identitiarians did that, but it was also h ilarious. "I don't have father isseus! Waaah, you just hurt me and I come from a broken home!" It was hysterical.

I find it shameful that you would tarnish the good name of Maximilian Kolbe by acting this way.

All anyone has to do is scroll up and see @Beemann is aparently a genuine pathological liar: he really can't stop himself.

"I won't discuss things with you unless you read 5 proofs"
"How dare you criticize the book I demanded you read, and my position for supporting it on that foundation?"

@Schedrevka Nice try, but why would St. Max care about your opinion, and why would anyone believe you know anything about him? And why would anyone care about Shedrevka's moral opinions for that matter?

Does the Catholic Church support projection? Oh I guess they do go after pedophiles repeatedly don't they.

Don't worry, I'm sure supporting the most heathen sector of Christendom is the right answer

ROFLMAO. He was given multiple book references, multiple other links, and he still just won't back down and admit he got something wrong. He needs to just keep lying.

Keep having fun i n your ridicu lous little ideological bubble world.

Also, keep dodging the question you ca n't answer: why should those of us in the Non-Atheist Majority give a flying fcuk if his rights are violated or if his feelings are hurt? He can't answer it. None of them can.

>this book proves X
>no it doesn't
>lmao you're lying about all the references I gave you

I never claimed he would care. I only claimed that *I* care, and anyone who is a good person should care at least on some level what a stranger thinks. I know about him because I was raised Catholic, have respect for the Catholic teachings, and attended a church named after him for much of my life.

Are you breaking right now?

I'm curious @Schedrevka if you could tell me where I could find this parish you claim was named after St. Max?

Houston TX

Oh, that's cool, I'd love to go there. But in any case you obviously don't actually know jack shit about the man, or you'd know he was a fierce warrior against heresy. 😉

Also, I doubt very much your claim that you have any respect at all for the Church, given that you just sit there and let these people lie and abuse, @Schedrevka

Out of curiosity, are you an ethno nationalist? Because I'm getting some killer deja vu here

Wondering if it's same ideology or just same playbook really

Now @Beemann pulls out the tried and true technique of trying personal smearing, rather than just answering challenges or retracting false claims.

Not a smear

I debate ethno nationalists all the time

I don't really give a shit if you are one, I'm just noticing the same tired tactics

Yeah, total smear there from @Beemann who is desperately trying to change the subject away from his own demonstrated lies (just scroll up kids) and tries to psychoanalyze. Now he wants me to say "no I'm not an ethno-Nationalist!" so he can accuse me of being one anyway. But no, I'm not one, thanks for the smear. But I definitely smell SJW/Feminist behavior off of you, it's all you've done this conversation.

You are not a fierce warrior, you are a smug person on the internet doing harm to your own cause. I know these people to some extent and they have shown themselves to show respect to others who disagree with them and to their beliefs when they themselves are shown respect which you have not done. I never claimed respect for the church. I claimed respect for the teachings, and I have respect for the individuals within the church who live up to the teachings.

Nah, if you're not one that's fine

Feel free to get the last word on me.

It's that you have this pattern of read my thirty books into baseless insult into claiming your opponent is being dishonest

@Schedrevka [snort] My cause has been very successful so far, thanks. And it's obvious that you're a fraud or you would have called these abusive frauds and liars out. I suggest you have your dishonest cultish bigot friends start backing down and apologizing for their agbusive behavior and their lies.

Which is like shot for shot how my debates have gone with ethnonats

Now look how @Beemann pivots again, claims he was offered "30 books." No, all anyone has to do is look: was asked for proof. Gave book, and offered others. He whined like a little bitch that he sh ouldn't have to go all the way to a library and actuyally read a whole book. Typical of the Atheism Cultists.

I mean still,l @Schedrevka you have witnessed in this conversation everything I said, but you chide me? Pft. Hypocrite.

Lol dishonest reframe

You offered a book, I pointed out it's an old, already debated argument

Scumbag asked for evidence and was given it, then refused to look and began whining becuase he can't read a whole book.

"That's not all my references Reee"

5 proof is no good. It's also not an evidence based argument. Gimme an evidence based argument

Don't show me a banana please or I'll laugh at you

"I lied and said he only gave references, then, then proved I'd given more than that, so I lied some more and claimed he'd given too much and hadd unreasonable expectations. WAAAAH! Being an Atheist is SO HARD! I AM A VICTIM EVERYBODY FEEL SORRY FOR MEEEEEEE!"

Wot

I commented on a specific reference you made and you had a meltdown

Feel free to provide a reference that matches my criteria

"5 proof is no good." Translation: The book I haven't read is BS anyway, because I said so. Also, watch me lie and claim it's not evidence-based."

You guys have fun. Let me know when you want to debrainwash yourself and stop being such creepy l iars.

I was reading through it last night

It's just Aquinas lol

He was "Reading through it."

Yes, as in I didn't bother reading through a whole book that is restating an ancient argument

Yeah, he's just a typical Atheist. Does nothing but lie. Demands proof, when he's given it, just lies about it, and makes it clear he's not even really looked at it. Typical, typical, typical. Th is is why Atheism is dying you know.

"I demand that you read this book about an argument you've already dealt with. If you dont read it you're dishonest"

I have a thousand page restatement of The Origin of Species. If you don't read it you don't understand my position

This is why any reaosnably smart theist can take on a dozen atheists at once and destroy them all. Once you realize they're not confused, they're just hateful and dishonest, and that the vast majority of them are science and history illiterate, you can just laugh at them.

Ah, I remember when I was fifteen.

>believes in essences

>believes he can explain everything materially

How do you definitively know your God is the right one, Max?

<- does not believe

Material things, yes

Like coldness and hotness lol

This conversation is clearly not going to be productive for anyone engaging in it.

Oh yeah, ofc, just wanna see the extent of his cognitive dissonance

Interesting how this has been the only time too

If only this could be reduced to a single factor

There was a much nicer fellow on this morning

Hmmmm 🤔

Atheists always want people to be "nice." What's so funny about that is, they're always hateful and nasty to people, but then whine that the people they're being hateful and abusive towards them are the bad guys.

Didn't Jesus say love your enemies?

Why yes he did. He said lots of things.

"You people are rude, dishonest and insulting"
"Why do atheists want people to be nice?"

Who said I'm not being loving when I point out hateful and abusive bigots who repeatedly lie, which is all that's happened since I got here?

WEW

Fairly certain you mocking me for being poor and fatherless yesterday wasn't very loving

I'm not even your enemy

The most loving act is often to call out liars. I'm still waiting for Beeman to retract a single lie, or apologize for anything.

I'm just a guy who wanted to understand

If I had lied I might have something to retract

You playing offendatron at my statements and liberally rewriting them in your head does not a lie make

"Atheists are over 90% male, and over 90% of them have father issues. That's what the science shows"

guess you didn't say i specifically, but i since you want to attribute to all atheists everything bad about a majority, then following your own precedent, you called me fatherless/haivng child issues

"if you will not respect us and our beliefs, values, and how we would like society set up."

my parents are christian, so claiming i have no respect for them or what they stand for

" has tried replacing religion with Nationalism, it's turned genocidal and either fascist or commie...Secular Atheist regimes have been more murderous in just the last century than alll religions cominbed for the last 2000 years, including Islam"

claiming i'm somehow related to communism and other regimes people religious people have blamed atheist for. (guess blaming jews for that because of Karl Marx wasn't popular after WWII so 'godless commies' sounded better)

"So, again, those of us who are religious have ZERO reason to trust you, your ideas, your proposals, or your desires for society"

claiming i'm not trustworthy and knowing my desires for society

"There goes @Grenade123 lying like a typical Atheist again, completely, about how I treated him, and what I said."

and calling me a liar for calling him out on his own statements.

and i'm the one acting superior and snooty?

I'm sorry if I was rude yesterday. You just upset me, by making rather uncalled-for ad hominem arguments

Your behaviour doesn't excuse my behaviour, though

And for that I truly apologise

@Vigil when did I mock you, in particular? Could you point me to it? And can we have some context? Because I believe what happened is I first simply identfied the scientific reality that most atheists have father issues--and gave references for same--and then had someone start whining that I'd insulted them. Then that same someone later on, after denying having father issues, whined that I'd insulted them--insulted them by giving them social science data--and then admitted to having a broken family. Was that you? Or did I confuse you with someone else?

@Vigil If I made an uncalled for ad hominem against you, I will apologize.

I am capable fo getting confused.

Yes, I have a broken family, but that's unrelated to my lack of faith. You directly mocked me multiple times with statements like "Typical crybaby fatherless atheists"

Which was cruel and uncalled for and not very Christian

he just spent the last half hour doing the same to me

basically, see above

@Vigil So in other words, I did not direct that comment at you?

You did. You said it in direct response to me.

Also, @Vigil I had done nothing but give social science data when I was ATTACKED and FALSELY ACCUSED of being insulting when all I'd done was give the social science data. Here it is again, same as I gave last time:

https://smile.amazon.com/Faith-Fatherless-Psychology-Paul-Vitz-ebook/dp/B00GB97UE8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1536694712&sr=8-1&keywords=faith+of+the+fatherless

And, I have more than that.

"MaxKolbeYesterday at 4:23 PM
@Vigil You are acting like a childish little boy with daddy issues wyho can't be bothered to discuss hard ideas."

Then I saw a bunch of crybabies who obviously DID have daddy issues WAILING that I'd insulted them... by simply giving them science references.

For reference, I have a college qualification in Philosophy, Ethics & Developments in Christian Thought

no, see, you gave them that after they called out your insult

as a way to hide your insult

@Grenade123 I don't see it that way, sorry.

because you didn't provide scientific evidence until later

naw, narcissists never do

OK @Grenade123 tell you what: I don't see it your way and you don't see it mine, so why don't we call it even, apologize to ech hother, and start over?

you know what? i will accept that.

I just retracted my last comment

I apologised and you doubled down on your insults. Just because a general trend is followed doesn't mean it's true in all cases. I'm not a "butthurt baby". I'm just concerned that a self-professed Christian sees fit to repeatedly and zealously mock other people instead of act politely. Ironically I'm acting more morally than you

@Stefan Payne i think you're conflating philosophy and religion. Someone can ultimately come to a value system symmetrical to a religious value system, without a theistic basis. Does that make both a religion?

@Vigil I dispute your telling of events, but I'll make you the same offering I made Grenade

What makes a religion cohesive is the same thing that makes religion dangerous when unchecked.

We can all apologize and start over, if you like.

No. I will not accept your blatant lie for the sake of pacifying you. I am not a pushover. I have already apologised. You will apologise or I am done engaging a fake Christian

Are you a sheep or a goat, Max?

@Stefan Payne I agree with you completely that you can construct a philosophical system symmetrical to a religious value systemk--although no one's ever successfully done it without invoking God in some way. Never.

@Vigil I did not lie. S

Max, you linked the wrong person

https://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/23/world/pope-atheists-again/index.html

@Vigil are you a Christian?

I am an agnostic who follows the principles of Christ

I was raised as a Roman Catholic

@MaxKolbe as a show of good faith, i will concede that you didn't direct an insult at Cipher directly until after i had asked for your evidence.

However I do not follow Jesus as a deity

@Vigil Well, you're also a liar, so I don't think I can believe anything you claim about your background either. No apologies for you at all, liar.

Wewlad.

it was only after you accused all atheists in chat of being fatherless

@Grenade123 polease show context, as I continue to dispute your telling of events.

I'll meet you halfway between Sodom and Gomorrah, mind the brimstone on your feet when you get down there Max

@Grenade123 See, you aren't 4really giving up, you're continuing to want to tell your version of events. I didpuste your version, sorry.

You also said his direct referencing of scripture was "an idiotic way" to read the bible

Despite the fact that it's actually what scripture says, and there's already a theological way around it

fucking, someone else use the the search function please? yesterday, 4:18, atheists are fatherless/have father issues, followed by me asking for evidence, 4:18 replying with evidence, 4:23 then using that evidence to attack cypher

pages like 5 or 6

IE rather than actually address the issue of the absolutely ridiculous and strict old testament rulings, you went after your opponent

"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds."
-2 Corinthians 11:13-15

all those EST times

And this was a few messages into the conversation

Now @Beemann continues to lie about what happened. Apologies withdrawn

Lol go back and look

At least I can *read* the Bible. Go buy it, all my points are addressed there, Max.

I did. You lie sir.

Anyone go search from @MaxKolbe and idiotic

"@CipherDown Reading the Bible in a shallow idiotic manner like that doesn't win you any points with Christians who are as smart as you or smarter, sorry."

Lying about messages I can search and quote verbatim shm fam

That's becuase he read it like an idiot. An insulting, demeaning idiot. He deserve the insult, he was being an asshole.

He should apologize for being such a rude, dishonest asshole quoting the Bible so mangled that way.

>reading "you'll get stoned to death for wearing the wrong materials" when that's what scripture says is idiotic

You're criticising the word of God?

Fairly sure blasphemy's a big one, Max

You're hilarious and don't even seem to know the theistic counterargument

Now @Vigil who GROSSLY distored and lied about the Bible, keeps lying. You are a really nasty man, CIpher.

I am directly quoting scripture

https://bible.org/seriespage/4-elisha-and-two-bears-2-kings-223-25

Old Testament demands barbaric shit. This isn't debatable.

If we want to have productive conversation in here, we should drop the past conversation right now, and start a new, with a focus on questioning ideas, and not people. Atheism and Christianity, not Atheists and Christians.

Bible story where a prophet directly commands two bears to kill 42 children for calling him "bald"

What is debatable is the relevance of the laws of the Tribe of Israel in relation to modern Christian faith

If God exists he shall smite charlatans wearing his cloth around their tongues, Max

Owing at least in part to the New Testament

And may charlatans like you burn as the archangels smite thee

or don't

For the Lord is righteous and has no room for hypocrites who use his word of love to sin

Yknow, if we're all going crazy zealot.

the old testament is more history than law or demands if i remember

But yes, I agree entirely with Beemann

Jesus himself said "Sabbath was made for man; man was not made for the Sabbath"

Jesus directly opposed old testament law which was Jewish and not Christian as Christ was not alive

OK, well, obvciously I'm outnumbered by some Atheist Ideologues who will not retract anything even when it's proven they lied, who will criticize ME for bad behavior but will not criticize therir fellows, and who act EXACTLY like the fatherless manbabies with ego issues that Science has proven is what MOST atheists are.

https://smile.amazon.com/Faith-Fatherless-Psychology-Paul-Vitz-ebook/dp/B00GB97UE8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1536694712&sr=8-1&keywords=faith+of+the+fatherless

I am speaking from the perspective of God and I'm not buying the damn book, you demagogue. How dare you assume the Holy Book of your own faith is not enough to hear the word of God?

Have a good one, boys, and let me know if ANY of you wilL EVER back up ANY of your claims, or EVER apologize for any of your own-multiple misstatements. I gotta go get my kid. We'll be going to Holy Hour at CHurch, praying the rosary and reading the Bible together. Maybe I"llb e back later. Cheers. 😉

guess not then

@Vigil Now the ex-Christian who lied blatantly about the Bible claims to speak for God. And still can't admit to being wrong. Yes, this is very typical:

https://smile.amazon.com/Faith-Fatherless-Psychology-Paul-Vitz-ebook/dp/B00GB97UE8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1536694712&sr=8-1&keywords=faith+of+the+fatherless

Laterz

I do not speak for God, but you pray to Paul Vitz

... Wait, guys, I think I know what's up

MaxKolbe is Paul Vitz plugging his own book

Lol
>comes into conversation
>adhoms all over everything
>why are you guys so rude? typical atheists

He claims he used to be an atheist himself. It's not surprising then that his view of atheists is so like himself.

>don't read Leviticus as brutal you idiot
>doesn't reference God's word on that which he has made clean
Like seriously holy shit

Eh, I'm done with Max. He's clearly praying to Paul Vitz and not God

This isn't even good apologia

“Judge not lest you be judged.” Remember your “savior’s” words?

We trust you are praying to your God for forgiveness, as you certainly aren’t living up to the tenets of Christianity. Do you remember the dictum “Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you”? Well, is it that you want strangers to send you hateful email out of the blue, as you have done to us?

You are clearly committing a sin by your own standards by this action, and if you don’t get it forgiven, it may be one of the many which bar your entry into the Heaven in which you believe.

Your bigotry and intolerance are exactly the same as that shown by the terrorists who kill those who do not share their beliefs. The free world of rational secular individuals is tired of people like you. You will reap as you have sown.
-The Church Of Satan

I feel like it's fairly applicable

This is like going to McDonald's and getting a dead bird in a stale bun. My expectations were already low, fucker

Thank god for people like Stefan

Without loving people like Stefan, my mother, one of my best friends, and so many other honest and well-meaning religious people I would be atheist, because no God would corrupt every worshipper

https://thesatanictemple.com/
"The mission of The Satanic Temple is to encourage benevolence and empathy among all people, reject tyrannical authority, advocate practical common sense and justice, and be directed by the human conscience to undertake noble pursuits guided by the individual will. Politically aware, Civic-minded Satanists and allies in The Satanic Temple have publicly opposed The Westboro Baptist Church, advocated on behalf of children in public school to abolish corporal punishment, applied for equal representation where religious monuments are placed on public property, provided religious exemption and legal protection against laws that unscientifically restrict women's reproductive autonomy, exposed fraudulent harmful pseudo-scientific practitioners and claims in mental health care, and applied to hold clubs along side other religious after school clubs in schools besieged by proselytizing organizations."

But humble, genuine, loving people are evidence that hey, maybe the idea of God's alright, it's just not something I actively experience

@Stefan Payne Thank you again, my friend

You put my faith back in faith, and although I'm never going to commit to a faith know that I'm happy to be living alongside fellow good people

c:

The satanic temple is cool, but the church of satan(levayan satanism) is full of edgy hedonist losers

My belief, or lack thereof, is not contingent on the perceived moral output of an unprovable being. 0% religious

everyone group has the same subset of people to different degrees

But I usually get along well with the religious, once those few initial barriers are passed

the same type of people that gave the religious a bad name, turned "liberals" and atheists into bad names

I usually get along well too because I only bring up my beliefs when directly asked, and by then people tend to have seen enough of me to judge me for who I am rather than how many fathers I may have.

People of faith are generally good. I oppose demagogues who bastardise the holy books to fulfil their own bigotry

See I'm just inquisitive, so people like that until/unless I ask the "wrong" question

And I'm willing to put forth the thought process

I've had some lengthy discussions with a Protestant and an Orthodox Christian in another discord

Which is where I pulled the Heathen Catholics thing from. You wanna hear some fucking trash being talked, ask a devout Orthodox Christian about the Pope and Saints

Literally if religious people follow the tenets of their own religions and stop being assholes to other people, they're cool with me. It's just people ignore scripture. Like, Islamic terrorists ignore that Muhammad literally forbade attacking Christians

Muhammad's Promise to the Monks of St. Catherine's Monastery Until the End of Days :



"This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.



Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.



No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.



Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.



No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.



No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world)."

When you can focus on the ideas, and ignore the people, you can have productive discussions

That depends severely on the fundamental tenets

Religious reform happens for a reason, divine word or no

Yes, but generally most religions fundamentally base themselves in order, justice and benevolence for your fellow man

Most major ones at least

Eh, I don't know about that either. It's situational

You look at the text and shit's fucked

At one or more points

Oh definitely a lot of laws are archaic but it's more about how those laws are written

Part of the aim of theological philosophy is to understand why the laws are what they are, and therefore to interpret the will of God and act accordingly

Would've been nice of God to actually tell us what he meant. Or to give us an updated version for the 21st century with a guide explaining it all objectively.

if you don't take the texts as literal, then you can use historical context to try and figure out the goal of what was written

You say most religions.

Can you name any that aren't rooted from Judaism?

@Vigil

Yes

Buddhism and Hinduism mainly

Zoroastronism

Gnosticism

Paganism

Buddhism is less a religion and more a philosophy

and besides, isn't about betterment of society - more about self-satisfaction

Hinduism is more about accepting your lot in life, no matter how untouchable you are.

Paganism is about the most self-servicing - and ill-defined - religion I can think of.

Part of the problem is that people who are Christian, for instance, view something like Buddhism through a Christian lens. I've seen Christians freak out about buddha statues like they were idol-worship.

Not at all what's going on there.

Make Iran Zoroastrian Again

I'll be honest, I don't know shit from zoroastronism.

Zoroastrianism is the Ultima Underworld of religions. You don't know it, but your [Modern Western Religion] had a big Zarathustra shaped hardon

Is basically my understanding of it

Anyway, the key component linking any of these things, and only *remotely* making Buddhism a religion, is the supernatural element - Usually an afterlife.

Buddhism is absolutely a religion. It has gods and afterlives.

Buddhism is a philosophy most traditionally layered atop Hinduism.

Buddhist pillars don't require the supernatural, though.

well... Aside from Nirvana and reincarnation...