Message from @Orrbit
Discord ID: 572927293832298507
@SUPER MALE VITALITY™ The Eucharist, in theory, isn't *absolutely* necessary for salvation, though.
Yes, it's called a spiritual communion. God isn't contained within the confines of the sacrament, he can give the same grace to anyone whenever he wants
It is not the nature of God to condemn his people to eternal death because of lack of access to a miracle only certain people can perform
You don't go to Hell if you are physically unable to receive the Eucharist.
If I am deserted on a tropical island with no other humans, I won't go to Hell when I inevitably starve to death, just because I did not receive the Eucharist.
If you seriously think the early fathers taught that there is an ontological difference b/w pastors and lay-people then prove it to me. I've read them thoroughly and never seen such an idea
God does not expect us to achieve the impossible, @SUPER MALE VITALITY™.
It all just seems very arbitrary, and lacking the mark of good doctrine that is scriptural justification
bruh read the link I sent
The Cyprian quote says nothing of ontology
It speaks of doctrine and organizational unity
The Maximos Confessor is anything but early.
Call to action
sure he does
Imagine thinking you know more than literally every Church father for the first 1500 years of Christianity lmao
????
I've read the fathers man
Likely far more than you
Every single one would probably slap you if you told them that there is no difference in being a priest and a layperson.
"But he could not hold the episcopate, even if he had before been made bishop". Sounds to me like Cyprian isn't denying that the man isn't a Bishop
There is a difference
It's not ontological
It's economic
It's about order, unity, training, etc.
You seriously believe the Church fathers would be perfectly fine with any lay person saying Mass?
then why do you need a Bishop to confer Holy Orders?
No. And I'm not either
And neither was Luther or Melanchthon
if its about training etc why, in a desperate situation, couldn't a man declare himself a priest?
That doesn't mean there is an ontological difference
We're talking about in absence of all other options
Because that wouldn't be in good order -__-
And it wouldn't be in unity either
Ni
Even in Extraordinary circumstances, lay people *never* consecrate the elements
And they *never* preach either, even in the absence of pastors
So you agree lay people literally cannot consecrate the elements under any circumstance?
Yes!
That doesn't mean there is an ontological difference that you make up though!
But how do you account for Priests having that ability when lay people don't