Imagine thinking you know more than literally every Church father for the first 1500 years of Christianity lmao

????

I've read the fathers man

Likely far more than you

Every single one would probably slap you if you told them that there is no difference in being a priest and a layperson.

"But he could not hold the episcopate, even if he had before been made bishop". Sounds to me like Cyprian isn't denying that the man isn't a Bishop

There is a difference

It's not ontological

It's economic

It's about order, unity, training, etc.

You seriously believe the Church fathers would be perfectly fine with any lay person saying Mass?

then why do you need a Bishop to confer Holy Orders?

No. And I'm not either

And neither was Luther or Melanchthon

if its about training etc why, in a desperate situation, couldn't a man declare himself a priest?

That doesn't mean there is an ontological difference

We're talking about in absence of all other options

Because that wouldn't be in good order -__-

And it wouldn't be in unity either

Ni

Even in Extraordinary circumstances, lay people *never* consecrate the elements

And they *never* preach either, even in the absence of pastors

So you agree lay people literally cannot consecrate the elements under any circumstance?

Yes!

That doesn't mean there is an ontological difference that you make up though!

But how do you account for Priests having that ability when lay people don't

I stick to the fathers and scriptures. If it isn't there, I don't believe it!

The ability?

Nobody has the ability

Wen did I say anything about ability?

I didn't say *can't* I said *shouldn't*

The ability is not in people

perhaps I should be more specific about the word ability - what I mean is, the priest is participating in Christ's ability so really it is God who is consecrating

The ability is in the Word and that alone. God performs the miracle, not man

yeah I agree

but, if I say those same words at the altar nothing will happen

Yes, and who speaks the Word is irrelevant to efficiency

No

God consecrates, it's not a magic spell you can summon with the right words

The person is irrelevant for efficiency

The Word is what matters.