@SUPER MALE VITALITY™ I concede David was not a priest

Glad I can read the fathers honestly as a Lutheran and not insert doctrine where it doesn't exist lol

@Quarantine_Zone what's this, now?

If there is an ability for a priest to do it, they are meant to, but if the eurachrist is a necessary element of salvation and there is no priest, then the priest cannot be a 100% vital component, there must be some means of attaining the power of communion even if the last priest has died. That, or the eurachrist does not hold any inherent power.

Lol, the idea of an ontological difference b/w lay people and the ordained isn't in the early fathers ever at all

@SUPER MALE VITALITY™ The Eucharist, in theory, isn't *absolutely* necessary for salvation, though.

Yes, it's called a spiritual communion. God isn't contained within the confines of the sacrament, he can give the same grace to anyone whenever he wants

It is not the nature of God to condemn his people to eternal death because of lack of access to a miracle only certain people can perform

You don't go to Hell if you are physically unable to receive the Eucharist.

If I am deserted on a tropical island with no other humans, I won't go to Hell when I inevitably starve to death, just because I did not receive the Eucharist.

If you seriously think the early fathers taught that there is an ontological difference b/w pastors and lay-people then prove it to me. I've read them thoroughly and never seen such an idea

God does not expect us to achieve the impossible, @SUPER MALE VITALITY™.

http://classicalchristianity.com/2012/03/30/on-the-indelible-mark-of-the-priesthood/

It all just seems very arbitrary, and lacking the mark of good doctrine that is scriptural justification

bruh read the link I sent

The Cyprian quote says nothing of ontology

It speaks of doctrine and organizational unity

The Maximos Confessor is anything but early.

Call to action

sure he does

Imagine thinking you know more than literally every Church father for the first 1500 years of Christianity lmao

????

I've read the fathers man

Likely far more than you

Every single one would probably slap you if you told them that there is no difference in being a priest and a layperson.

"But he could not hold the episcopate, even if he had before been made bishop". Sounds to me like Cyprian isn't denying that the man isn't a Bishop

There is a difference

It's not ontological

It's economic

It's about order, unity, training, etc.

You seriously believe the Church fathers would be perfectly fine with any lay person saying Mass?

then why do you need a Bishop to confer Holy Orders?

No. And I'm not either

And neither was Luther or Melanchthon

if its about training etc why, in a desperate situation, couldn't a man declare himself a priest?

That doesn't mean there is an ontological difference

We're talking about in absence of all other options

Because that wouldn't be in good order -__-

And it wouldn't be in unity either

Ni

Even in Extraordinary circumstances, lay people *never* consecrate the elements