Message from @The King Of Moab
Discord ID: 650895173890473987
Yes
then, what makes you thing that we have been created?
Think of it this way. This is the material world. He created the material world from an immaterial world, like how we would create a computer which then creates a cyber world
Bit of a stretch, but you get the idea. There is no infinite circle where the immaterial then needs to be created, because it's not material - therefore nothing within it can be created
yeah, i understand, hes the programmer, that's also the way i see it
what do you define as inmaterial?
Something that can't be perceived with the 5 senses, however extreme they are
@The King Of Moab Well, the insufficiency of a proof doesn't mean that something doesn't exists, just that it cannot be proved with the current tools, that's why i think atheist are wrong
That's what you are saying?
Right, and this thing can't be "scientifically proven" because it can't be measured with material tools
well, we cannot perceive many things that exists in the "physical" world
there are things that can only be perceived with some extra tool and others that are (for now) out of reach
All things that are imperceptible of the material are still in relation to the material. My thoughts, for example, are a product of my brain. My consciousness and my soul are immaterial aspects, though
then, how do you know you have a soul?
You may one day be able to read my mind but you will never prove how gracious or sinister my soul is
It's an immaterial concept
yeah, but how do you know that the soul exists?
The same way you know God exists
I can't exist in the material without it
@Enryse so can we as human beings know things which we cannot prove scientifical? If yes, then metaphysics is a useful field of philosophy.
The Greek philosophers pondered these same questions long before any influence from the Abrahamic religion
but, i don't see why you wouldn't exits without god, if god wasn't created, what makes you thing that the first living creature was?
Because creature means something that is created
And how could you know something you cannot perceive? (I mean, yes, someone could tell you, and you could believe by faith, but that can apply to everything)
ok what about "living beings"?
Because not all knowledge comes from the senses
Yes, the Greek's pondered the same question, and many conclude that they cannot know
I know, math and logic comes for default
And the self existence knowledge
Right, and thus our epistemology is not dependent on our perceptions alone
yeah, but how does god is part of that default knowledge?
following the previous argument...
If there can be an unmoved mover, there is no reason to thing there cannot be others
Not by itself, no
Also, infinity its impossible to know, because we could never know if something that appears infinite is actually infinite
But we know that numbers are infinite
Well, logic and maths in general are infinite, the abstract world is infinite, so we know that the infinite is logically provable, just as a god is logically provable
I wouldn't say it's all default knowledge. A child might understand 2+2 = 4 but pi is a complete mystery to them. The point being that they need to grow and expand their knowledge and understanding of mathematics.
yeah, but they could find pi with just rezoning
Right, but it isn't innate