in some aspects yes it was a form of 4GW. They were initially denied participation and demanded redress and by their means got the goals they desired

So far nothing but strawmen, red herrings, and constantly begging the question

whole lot of logical fallacies

@SPOOKY Phil, Ruler of Heck Well, if drone strikes are not war, then how could cyber attacks (even if done by a state, against another state) be war?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/war
@whiic
War can also mean "a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism" or even "a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end" (Class War for example)

Well, I don't believe in class war.

That's a lot of crap.

@whiic I'd consider drone-strikes to be on the level of border-skirmishes, not an all-out war, but that's just my opinion 🤷🏻

And I consider "cyber war" as it exists between many countries to be even less than border-skirmishes. It's more like espionage, breach of airspace without shooting.

When digital espionage crosses to what I would consider "cyber war" is when nuclear plants melt down and there's actual casualties.

Stealing corporate secrets of a rivaling country is not literal warfare.

@whiic so would you consider the "Pig War" to be an actual war or not?

https://www.quora.com/Have-there-ever-been-any-battles-that-had-zero-or-close-to-zero-low-tens-deaths-and-overall-low-casualties

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_War_(1859)

Don't know. Too specific and too historic to care.

<:thunk:462282216467333140>

It'd help to look at the wikipedia article

God, I can't believe I have to do this....

TL;DR: The USA and UK got into a war against eachother over pigs

There was a single casualty....

a single pig.

Did Congress declare war?

Or did the UK declare a war instead?

I don't even find the words like starting with "decl" (declared, declaration, etc.)

So no war was declared. Not an official state of war.

And no shots were fired, so not un-official skirmish either.

By any standard, it has nothing to do with war.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4hu7hc/the_us_congress_has_not_declared_war_since_1941/

apparently there hasn't been a war declared by Congress since 1941

I know.

does that mean that the Korean War wasn't a war, if Congress didn't declare it to be as such?

what about Vietnam?

USA just does "world policing". Either with drones or with boots on the ground. They just "fuck the Constitution, LOL".

Well Korean War has shots fired at humans, and causualties, mass casualties, and was obviously a de-facto state of war (even for USA).

How is that comparable to "Pig War" which even according to article linked by you, did not result in declaration of war and also **zero fucking casualties on any side**.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasi-War
Is a conflict to be considered a war if it's not declared but there are casualties (or if there are no casualties but it's declared)? Or do both conditions (Congress has to declare a formal war, and there has to be casualties) have to be met for it to be considered a war? In other words, does the conflict have to be a de facto war, or can it also be a de jure war?

The level of mental gymnastics is insane

I could consider Antifa vs. govt to be an undeclared civil war if and only if police started shooting Antifa members. So far Antifa has conducted a one-sided war against the govt, which is ironic because usually govt does one-sided war against others (via drones).

Which would lead me to believe govt is actually on Antifa's side (even though Antifa is not on govt's side).

If there's a civil war, who's the other faction? Alt-Right?

A “one-sided war” is still a war. Just because you don’t personally believe it does not mean what goes on in America isn’t already happening