like the media, excessive hours of labour, education on economics (mainstream economics) working against us

thats what im saying @senfood

this is erased in a socialist society

Even if it's effective initially, it will erode over time

unjustified hierarchies are unjust, no matter how much they claim to represent justice

Nothing is completely erased.

when the conditions are there

we wouldn't need a vanguard if all people had been educated on marxist science and economics

It's incredibly doubtful

you don't need a vanguard

super elitist to think working class people cant grasp the ideas without a helping hand

That's assuming that nobody would question it or even outright reject it

It doesn't take into account straight up contrarians

by vanguard I don't mean an elite party isolated

The soviets had assemblies with Lenin

they did

but the assemblies should be *it*

unions, laborers, the people themselves

but then they were picky, Stalin tried to introduce reforms so the delegates could be elected from the assemblies and not from the party

but too late and Khruschevite revisionism entered

and there's the unjust power structure

yes

so we have to remove it as soon as possible after the education and horizontal structures are set up

people don't just give up power voluntarily

once a power structure is in place, the power has to be taken back

so then you just revolution again

against the people supposedly defending you as an extension of your interests

when ultimately the goal is abolishing unjust power structures, categorically

There are two trends in anarchism: synthetism, which has all the individual trends of anarchism from the perspective of the person; and platformism, which uses discipline, collective responsability and has theoretical unity

i spat with zielgarat about vanguardism too haha

in the second case, the people has to give authority to a committee, the same with a leninist party

I don't think we need a revolution again, we should make a plan so the people can dismantle the state legally and let them having guns

but then you're relying on reformism to take down power structures

why bother?

why not just let the workers *be* the movement

so they consent, and after revolution when all is set up; we can set up the horizontal structures... if something went wrong people have guns

im still not convinced

there's no reformism because we aren't reforming capitalism

but a "plan" for the state to give up power is asking those in power to relinquish power

rather than *taking* it for the people

im not actually sure if we're disagreeing,