Message from @xmrsmoothx
Discord ID: 506540959744393216
Ok guys it was great chatting with you I have to go now bye bye
People own things "back home" including property
socialist society is not mutually exclusive with property
How do you own the means of production but then allow people to own their own means of production?
How do you move to communal ownership but give your employees wages such that they can bet them on various goings on?
There's not really anything in the way of that all being removed is there?
in a socialist society, workers can own their own means of production
for example, picard's family has a family owned vineyard and stuff
You're doing this backwards
which makes picard the owner of a company, and that makes him no longer part of the working class
@Grenade123 for all we know, it's collectively owned
then its not his
in general though, in the marxist sense star trek is socialist
because of the abolishment of generalized commodity production
if everyone owns it, no one owns it
@Grenade123 that doesn't even make any sense, if me and my wife sign a lease on a house, it's not suddenly unowned
we both own it
if 10 people own something, then none of them own it, as none of them get to decide what to do with it
? ? ?
you do not own a house, you and your wife own a house
but should you and your wife disagree on how something is done with the house, then neither of you get to do anything with it
There should be a second debate channel that allows for related links and pictures to be posted
if you have problems with collective ownership I invite you to read kropotkin, he writes extensively on how it works
I'm off to eat lunch now
wish they'd remove slow mode
@xmrsmoothx do you have a problem with mob rule?
guten Appetit
DM me if you want to argue more, I'm leaving
collective ownership is mob rule
unless your ownership comes at certain percents, but then we have a hierarchy where whoever has the most ownership mostly gets to decide what happens
no real different than we have today
mob rule means those least represented get the shaft
not very progressive
i think it's bad form to simply tell people to "go read (x)"
but Kropotkin has written some seriously good stuff on the subject
collective decisions don't have to be made by simple majority vote, either
if they are not, then you have a minority making a decision for the majority, which is what we have now
also, if you want workers to seize the means of production, then all you are doing is putting the people who own the most robots at the top of the new hierarchy structure. As they can product the most while maintain sole ownership of their property
No the idea of seizing the means of production is that they still wouldn't own shit personally
But the trick of it is that it's always dependent on having a system that is reasonably optimized without a feasible metric for optimization
```that's not really accurate```
I agree with @Beemann on the Star Trek issue. Its true that there is money (again) and personal posession.
There was just one line IIRC, where it was said that there was no money and that was Star Trek 4, where Kirk said that Money was abolished a long time ago...
Yeah I had heard about that but I never watched ST4. TNG references wages and betting, people have their own personal possessions and people own land though. The difference is that most possessions are sentimental and most wealth is used experientially
Theres an episode in TNG where they're trapped in a fictional novel and they make reference to the need to acquire currency, and also when Riker is trying to find the fat Ferengi he is told he needs currency and that they don't have any only materials for trade
TNG mentions personal Property, though IIRC not money.
its DS9 where Money is mentioned (again)