star trek is essentially a mid-stage socialist society

Yeah

Star Trek is a hierarchal liberal society with private ownership

that's not really accurate

you must have watched the recent sargon video

I've watched Star Trek. People have personal possessions, and gamble

Ok guys it was great chatting with you I have to go now bye bye

People own things "back home" including property

socialist society is not mutually exclusive with property

How do you own the means of production but then allow people to own their own means of production?
How do you move to communal ownership but give your employees wages such that they can bet them on various goings on?
There's not really anything in the way of that all being removed is there?

in a socialist society, workers can own their own means of production

for example, picard's family has a family owned vineyard and stuff

You're doing this backwards

which makes picard the owner of a company, and that makes him no longer part of the working class

@Grenade123 for all we know, it's collectively owned

then its not his

in general though, in the marxist sense star trek is socialist

because of the abolishment of generalized commodity production

if everyone owns it, no one owns it

@Grenade123 that doesn't even make any sense, if me and my wife sign a lease on a house, it's not suddenly unowned

we both own it

if 10 people own something, then none of them own it, as none of them get to decide what to do with it

? ? ?

you do not own a house, you and your wife own a house

but should you and your wife disagree on how something is done with the house, then neither of you get to do anything with it

There should be a second debate channel that allows for related links and pictures to be posted

if you have problems with collective ownership I invite you to read kropotkin, he writes extensively on how it works

I'm off to eat lunch now

wish they'd remove slow mode

@xmrsmoothx do you have a problem with mob rule?

guten Appetit

DM me if you want to argue more, I'm leaving

collective ownership is mob rule

unless your ownership comes at certain percents, but then we have a hierarchy where whoever has the most ownership mostly gets to decide what happens

no real different than we have today

mob rule means those least represented get the shaft

not very progressive

i think it's bad form to simply tell people to "go read (x)"
but Kropotkin has written some seriously good stuff on the subject
collective decisions don't have to be made by simple majority vote, either

if they are not, then you have a minority making a decision for the majority, which is what we have now

also, if you want workers to seize the means of production, then all you are doing is putting the people who own the most robots at the top of the new hierarchy structure. As they can product the most while maintain sole ownership of their property

No the idea of seizing the means of production is that they still wouldn't own shit personally