Message from @Stefan Payne
Discord ID: 506565147415019590
if you have problems with collective ownership I invite you to read kropotkin, he writes extensively on how it works
I'm off to eat lunch now
wish they'd remove slow mode
@xmrsmoothx do you have a problem with mob rule?
guten Appetit
DM me if you want to argue more, I'm leaving
collective ownership is mob rule
unless your ownership comes at certain percents, but then we have a hierarchy where whoever has the most ownership mostly gets to decide what happens
no real different than we have today
mob rule means those least represented get the shaft
not very progressive
i think it's bad form to simply tell people to "go read (x)"
but Kropotkin has written some seriously good stuff on the subject
collective decisions don't have to be made by simple majority vote, either
if they are not, then you have a minority making a decision for the majority, which is what we have now
also, if you want workers to seize the means of production, then all you are doing is putting the people who own the most robots at the top of the new hierarchy structure. As they can product the most while maintain sole ownership of their property
No the idea of seizing the means of production is that they still wouldn't own shit personally
But the trick of it is that it's always dependent on having a system that is reasonably optimized without a feasible metric for optimization
```that's not really accurate```
I agree with @Beemann on the Star Trek issue. Its true that there is money (again) and personal posession.
There was just one line IIRC, where it was said that there was no money and that was Star Trek 4, where Kirk said that Money was abolished a long time ago...
Yeah I had heard about that but I never watched ST4. TNG references wages and betting, people have their own personal possessions and people own land though. The difference is that most possessions are sentimental and most wealth is used experientially
Theres an episode in TNG where they're trapped in a fictional novel and they make reference to the need to acquire currency, and also when Riker is trying to find the fat Ferengi he is told he needs currency and that they don't have any only materials for trade
TNG mentions personal Property, though IIRC not money.
Worf mentions a betting pool in an episode in TNG
That isn't really a contradiction.
It stuck out to me because I had been told that money wasn't a thing in Star Trek
both can be true, no currency but some form of money.
or a Point System, whatever
Whenever they bartered in trade situations it was usually in Latinum or Gold
Ultimately they have a cash equivalent. I doubt an advanced society is barter-paying their military
I think the whole point they're trying to get across in Star Trek is no-one needs currency because of replicators
You can certainly make big deals on that basis, but not small ones
But they evidently have it
Trade in precious metals isnt the same thing as a currency though, since any currency is usually backed by a precious metal which does not depreceate in value
Money is probably for trading with other races tbh edit: Other organizations
So things have monetary value but nobody really cares about that anymore.
The Ferengi trade mostly in Latinum and Gold, and being the space equivelant of a free market I would suggest that they set that standard
I'm by no means a Star Trek guy though so I am just making a guess.
"Any currency is usually backed by a precious metal"
This hasn't been the case for decades
If I remember correctly the Euro is gold standard still.
If you invest in precious metals when your currency is weak, you sell it for much more when your currency is strong
That's not the same thing as having money *backed* by precious metals