Hello! Briefly scanning up, seems there a pretty engaged core around. How is everyone?

Oh, what's causing you issues?

Oh I see.. sure you don't need a drink and not a cup of tea ?:D

never too early for rum! is anyone aware why the decision was made to start a discord btw? I'm curious

Yeah fair enough. I was thinking it may also be because a lot of younger guys seem to have their finger on the pulse and think there's a bit of a groundswell to capitalize on with that.

But certainly don't think a deletion is likely any time soon.. hopefully at least. There's some good dialogue and some pretty clued up people posting regularly

Hey there

It's difficult... on one hand, you need some strong moderation to keep it on track, but on the other hand you sorta need that dialogue going on and to hear a dissenting voice is healthy.

The risk is definitely there mind you, the more the movement comes from negativity the more problematic it becomes - think it's hard to both point out inequalities as well as inspire without having a pretty curated front page.

There's also a problem with the message - you aren't going to gain any traction with the 'we want to go back in time'/dislike of promiscuity talk because socially we're well past those questions - that came with available birth control. It is also far too easily conflated with the incel/mgtow movements.

The truth of the matter is that we're seeing a 'levelling' of the sexual market where you're seeing different trends - and sex work is highly lucrative and so will of course be something people with few other prospects are drawn to, especially if there is no stigma.

But we're seeing more clearly, imo, the resources/beauty dynamic - and I'm personally seeing this. It is difficult to navigate the 'legitimacy' of feelings vs just seeing someone as a good provider/attractive and I'm sure that contributes to the reduction in people planning to marry.

Idd the issue for me has to be the message getting co-opted by people who are incredibly bitter, and driving moderate voices away. There are many who don't identify as Democrat or Republican who are looking for a movement where you're simply able to discuss these things. No judgement, no Trump hats, no 'so you're against abortion' logical fallacies - just debate.

surely that is exactly how we are going to get moderate people to see and understand the point of the movement?

Otherwise you aren't able to break apart any of the 'false' facts used by other movements to push their ideologies. It just becomes who can scream the loudest.. and then mrm becomes primarily a protest movement.

Which is fine - but longer term that seems to me that it'd poison the well.

Long time overdue. Title IX is basically state sponsored discrimination at the moment.

@Mush if the average woman is able to sell sex without social repercussions, and both women and men are able to earn equally - then we're in a sellers economy. You're already seeing this with cam girls/twitch girls making six figures due to accessibility and the 'stigma' largely reducing, certainly in progressive areas. I'd say once you introduce relatively decent sex robots you reduce a bit of that power imbalance, but from what I've heard most people buying escorts aren't actually doing it for the sex, they're doing it because men past a certain age without resources are essentially invisible.

So I'd expect to see an increase in the 'male grooming' market to compensate for this. If both genders can earn equally (indeed below 30 I believe women out-earn men as a group) it'll put the focus more on direct attraction, skin care, etc. We've already seen the explosion in population gym use largely because of this. But at the end of the day marriage was societal selection not sexual selection. From what I remember something like 80% of women and 60% of men typically breed across a generation. I'd expect this will go something like 70%/50% and change over time due to availability, the development of the social safety net and the acceptable nature of no-fault divorce.

But realistically, society has allowed these men to fall out of the gene pool for generations - we just had no statistics on it.

Random - anyone use or have used a Nest heating system?

I'd also say it is due to how many women are used to discussion and social group. If you can shame and ostracise somebody and 'other' them within your group of friends they are excluded. In my experience at least, most men are more accepting of differences. You don't need to agree to respect someone, nor does disagreeing with someone make you respect them less. I do agree it's strange how much feminism is able to propose/say/comment on when it comes to men, when replacing 'men' with any other group would be deemed very racist.

Imo the element of unhinged misandry within feminism will destroy it eventually,, the question is more what will happen in the meantime as the pendulum resets.

@Bobby_Hill in my experience, any job you do isn't really about the job itself, it's about showing you're reliable, have a good work ethic and are professional. If I could talk to my younger self, I'd say take all opportunities regardless of how 'shitty' they look, make contacts and most of the time a better job will come from a job.

And tbh retail is a huge negative reinforcement job, which itself isn't a bad thing. I worked 12 hours a day, 7 days a week as a retail manager and didn't have a day off for half a year. I knew at the end of that period how hard I was capable of working at something I wasn't enjoying - so why not work just as hard at something I did enjoy?

Is that really true though? I actually think many MRA seem to want to give women more rights and power, because the core tenet of Feminism is that women are victims of the patriarchy and downtrodden.

To embrace feminism completely you need to identify as a victim, as there is value (within that community) to victimhood. Now I'm not saying we shouldn't embrace and be compassionate for people who have undergone difficult times in their lives.. but it should not be a ticket for entry, and it should not be celebrated or give value.

And by 'give more rights and power', I am talking about responsibility for those rights which are existing also.

That is my point, if you give someone responsibility you give them agency.

And sure, perhaps 'rights and power' is a little bit of a misnomer.

but I do agree that the 'women and children' thing, when you think about it is a little, is quite surreal.

You're effectively saying that you deserve all the rights and protections of the powerless whilst being mandated socially to have equal power to those who have rights and responsibilities - but also repercussions and consequences.

I've actually just been talking about this with a female friend who has found out a friend of hers was being abused for years without anyone knowing about it.

His gf not letting him see friends, hitting him, not letting him use his phone at home when with her.. just suffering in silence because there is no outreach available. No shelters. When he finally went to the police, they wouldn't prosecute his case despite being one of the worst they've seen, because they only prosecute cases with >90% chance of success now.

And female on male DV isn't in that bracket.

It's truly sickening.

From what I understand she's still trying to log into his online accounts and 'stalk him', so yes, it is an ongoing thing when you have so little legal ability to give her repercussions.

I am curious actually, do you have any videos anyone would recommend to someone just 'dipping their feet' and not wanting to be blown away with a bunch of circumcision posts and hypocritical twitter screen caps?

Is there anything a little.. US centric? Not that I don't understand it is an issue many people advocate strongly on (and rightly so) - but as a European it is... in many cases pretty hard to get your head around a whole business of chopping bits of genitals off little babies. Perhaps something about inequality in courts/prisons/dv etc?

Cheers. They're good points. I was going to suggest The Red Pill but was looking for something on youtube a little more bite sizes, long form style.

But it's sobering to realise it just isn't being funded right now.

I'm not sure I agree with that.

I think there is a danger to embrace the very same 'victim complex' which we so readily mock when it applies to Feminism. I do think that MRAs have a huge image problem though, and it is hard to pin down a good 'angle of attack' to be able to convey it to a wider public.

You look at the gender pay gap and the reason it has lasted so long is because it does exist - but it does so for reasons other than the ones they represent.

So perhaps the important aspect is to figure out how to find a similar 'uniting' cause, otherwise, imo the issues become too spread out - it becomes too easy to paint MRA as 'against women' and 'against feminism'... although I've noticed the reddit sub at least does a relatively good job of trying to upvote cases of unfairness as much as twitter screenshots sometimes.

But bigger picture? ... imo you'll have a pushback and it'll look a lot cruder and more violent than MRA - it would be vastly better if we were able to get to a useful dialogue earlier, to be able to advocate for people to be equal in all ways rather than just the ways it suits..

But it seems a long way off.

Oh I agree, the strength is the debate, the ability to present the facts in a different way and 'uncover' the prejudice.

But the problem with most of the modern discourse is you see it on twitter.. you see it being a very closed ecosystem.. People follow others with similar beliefs...

there is no consistent dissenting voice most of these people actually get to see.

So all you see for years is confirmation bias, and imo that makes the job of MRA more difficult because people simply don't believe you're presenting the facts and that those facts exist. it is fingers in the ears lalalala style discussion in many cases.

Imo the true difficulty does lay with toxic masculinity and the problem of admitting 'male weakness' exists.

Because ironically it goes against the type of chauvinism which many women (who are non feminist) buy in to. The idea of the male role being the 'strong one' who provides and protects.

Which is where we are back to 'toxic masculinity', but not in the way the feminists would have you believe. Because when I think about it, the only way you're going to see MRA 'explode' into the mainstream has to be admitting that aspect of toxic masculinity (the requirement to be masculine and strong at all times) is limiting and also obliterates any possibility to open up a narrative about areas where men are downtrodden and under-represented, if not downtrodden.

you only need to look at the reaction to the number of men and boys in education and their performance to see the reaction from feminists and the mainstream.

'fuck them, we need more women in stem' - to see we need to open that door, imo, to be able to get to everything else.

The problem is this is also the same door which many women are attracted to. It's a catch-22.

It's a good thing, because it means that the trigger-warriors will tear themselves apart.

it is not enough to just be 'progressive', now you need to 'out woke' the 'woke' to be accepted - and it is pushing more sensible thinking people towards conservatism imo.

Absolutely amazing you're hearing that from the Aus PM

Australian progressive policy has been vehement lately and unrelenting.

It's interesting we're seeing this kickback lately, and the PM saying it does give it visibility.

@Shenpai gotta say dude, good luck with that one.

@Men Are Human unfortunately logic doesn't work with most. "Oh it's not the same" is the usual answer you get.

"Historical oppression"

I always thought that 'white male privilege' was just a made up term to try and explain affirmative action?

Otherwise everyone sees it as reverse sexism/racism a lot more easily and quickly

Yeah it's infuriating when you get the 'equality' rant when some of those examples are huge inequalities.

But imo the supreme court does want to rule against affirmative action, we just aren't quite there yet in that zeitgeist for it to be carried by the country.

I did hear there are some positive TitleIX verdicts lately though

Idd gotta say I've not seen anyone in here spout any nonsense about far right 'talking points', it's purely a smoke screen to try to attack the people belonging to the group before they make valid points on paternity leave, male circumcision, prison sentencing inequalities etc. But I suppose as any group grows it needs to stay true to it's roots and try to avoid those voices.

Originally if I remember correctly MRAs were largely Democrats but with the current democrats largely indifferent to supporting MR issues we're seeing many consider themselves 'conservative' with a small 'c'.

Tbh regardless of your political views the issues don't change very much when it comes to MR, we seem to have quite a few colored, conservative, gay and/or liberal people who are starting to realise that shouting MRAs down and calling MRAs 'nazis' doesn't give you a strong argument - it just makes them look like bigots.

Tbh if you aren't posting with a throwaway account for MR related issues it's difficult to get traction and start changing minds in other more 'liberal' (yet ironically authoritarian when it comes to dissenting opinion) subs. Just my personal experience, but the amount of bigotry you'll see when bringing up even very reasonable issues like paternity leave and debunking the pay gap (which has already been disproved by many economic institutes by now) is astounding. It really is GroupThink

Almost certainly, the average 'mod' on reddit for those subs seems absolutely humourless, unable to bother with a counter argument and would rather remove opinions they disagree with than let people debate them.

Imo if reddit dropped downvotes to maximum of 0 for a comment and went a lot more easy on the moderation it'd be a much better platform